Private Club Radio Show

382: Balancing Heritage and Modernness at The Country Club of Detroit w/ Craig Cutler, CCM, ECM

September 02, 2024 • Denny Corby

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What can the Country Club of Detroit's historical journey teach us about blending tradition with modernity? Join us as we sit down with Craig Cutler, the club's General Manager, to uncover the club's fascinating transformation from its 1897 inception to its recent renovations. Craig offers a captivating look at how the club has managed to preserve its rich heritage while integrating contemporary amenities, ensuring a balanced experience for both long-time members and newcomers. His insights into fostering strong relationships within the club make this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the hospitality industry.

Travel with us from the glitzy world of Los Angeles post-production to the storied clubs of Michigan, as I share my career journey that spans iconic venues like the Formosa Cafe and the Greek Theatre. Moving to Michigan brought new opportunities at prestigious spots like the Detroit Athletic Club and the Country Club of Detroit. The episode delves into the invaluable lessons learned from these experiences, emphasizing the importance of building strong relationships with regulars, reinvesting in the club experience, and maintaining a stellar reputation—an ethos I attribute to my mother's influential guidance.

Finally, we explore the impressive renovation projects initiated at the Country Club of Detroit in 2013, from converting an outdated snack bar into a standalone restaurant to the ambitious task of relocating a six-lane bowling alley below grade. Learn how these innovative changes have driven increased revenue and membership without sacrificing user experience. Craig's thoughtful approach to managing growth, member engagement, and staff development, coupled with personal stories and insights on career resilience, rounds out this enlightening discussion. Don't miss out on Craig's wisdom and practical tips for navigating the ever-evolving landscape of the hospitality industry.

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Speaker 1:

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Private Club Radio Show podcast, the industry's choice and source for news, trends, updates and conversations all in the world of private golf and country clubs. Whether you're a consummate professional or brand new to the industry, welcome. We're glad you're here. This is a show where we go over any and all topics related to private golf and country clubs. I'm your host, denny Corby, glad you're all here. If you've not done so already, make sure you sign up for our newsletter. Sign up at privateclubradiocom If you're enjoying the content, like share, subscribe. Anything you can do to help move our channel and content forward means the world.

Speaker 1:

In this episode I get to chat with the general manager of the Country Club of Detroit, craig Cutler, and we go deep into him, his history and the amazing history of the club there. And they went through a big renovation and really preserved the club's character. And that's what this is about. A lot of people, a lot of clubs, they do these big remodels, they do these big plans and they're all great, they're all good, but this one, this one in particular, craig and him and the team they literally kept the character and the style of the club. It's really amazing. If you have not checked out the Country Club of Detroit. It is beautiful and the work that they've done to enhance and bring it up to date, while keeping this amazing feeling of history and style and culture. It is absolutely amazing what he and the team have done.

Speaker 1:

A lot of our talk also deals with importance of maintaining a strong relationship, strong relationships, strong reputation and creating an environment where staff and members feel cared for and they feel taken care of. And that's probably been a common theme through a lot of our recent episodes and just chats and, even though it's always touching on different things and different areas, it boils back to this the staff, the people being taken care of, the feeling of being taken care of. And what I like as well is Craig and I also chat about the value of resilience and learning from failures, especially in the hospitality industry. But it's a really great episode. I've loved chatting with Craig and I know you will too. Before we get to the episode, quick thank you to some of our show partners.

Speaker 1:

Kenes Member Vetting membervettingcom. If you are not updating or thinking about updating your current member vetting process, head on over to membervettingcom. We have our friends golf life navigators. Zillow meets eHarmony for golf enthusiasts. It's advertising without advertising and marketing without marketing for clubs. If your club would like to be a part of this platform where golfers go to learn where their next dream club is, head on over to Concert Golf, head on over to golflifenavigatorscom and set up a call with Jason or one of the team. They're great people and we have myself, denny Corby, the Denny Corby Experience. There's magic, mind reading and comedy. There's excitement, mystery. Also, there's magic. It is one of the most fun nights you and your club is going to do, guaranteed. If you'd like to learn more, head on over to dennycorbycom or hit me up on LinkedIn. I'm all over the place, but anyway, private Club Radio listeners, let's welcome to the show. Gm of the Country Club of Detroit, craig Cutler, how old were you when you came over to Detroit? You said how old, about two, three.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, just a couple years old. My mom's family was all still back, so we used to go back to Staten Island for the summers and stuff like that.

Speaker 1:

I got you, I got you. It gets pretty cold there, right.

Speaker 2:

Michigan. Yeah, you know it's no different than Chicago. Or you know Philadelphia.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is yeah.

Speaker 2:

We get used to it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, you can always put more clothes on, you know. That is true. That is true. I love what you're doing with the club. You've done some amazing stuff.

Speaker 2:

It's a great uh. It's a great property. It's a classic uh. You know uh old american club been around since uh incorporated in 1897 uh in our current clubhouse since 1927. It was really just bringing it uh modern amenities to a beautiful old club.

Speaker 1:

And keeping the character that was the challenge. Which I think you did very well, because when we talked, you know, because I think everybody goes, oh, we like to keep the character, and you were like, oh, we kept like the style and all that. And you hear everyone go that and you're like, oh, okay, you did it very well.

Speaker 2:

Like when you sent me all the photos and everything.

Speaker 1:

It was very tasteful, like it wasn't like. Like you walk in and you can tell like A it was how do I phrase it? You can tell it was a very conscious decision and it wasn't one of those choices where it's like, okay, how do we save as much money and not change as much, while still making it look like? You did a very good job of keeping the aesthetic as just just like you said, keeping that character and and I'm just looking through, like the photos I get now like it is, it's so cool.

Speaker 2:

Like it looks like like a world renowned resort, it looks so good sure, well, you know, kind of is uh, uh, the, the, the club, the, our current clubhouse was completed in 1927 and you know, there you've got, uh, you've got art deco, you've got the arts and crafts movement and and uh. And then you know, in a tutor revival building, um, it started off really good. You just had to stick true to what was best about it. And I think if you don't, and you don't have the right partners when you're doing improvements, who understand and really have a vibe for your place, you're going to end up going back and you're going to have to spend the money you don't want to spend eventually. I just, you know it's better to.

Speaker 2:

I we've always waited. You know, if we needed another year, if we needed to raise more cash, if we needed to wait and dedicate more money from the capital budget, we waited. If it took another year, it took another year. If it took another two years, it took another two years. But what was important was getting the result right and what we're looking for here is kind of what you reacted to, which is that feel and so we try to use. You know period finishes, you know it could be 27,. You know, when you come in here without the asbestos and the. You know burning logs in the fireplace and you know cigarette smoke and everything else that used to happen back then.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I can't stop looking at the photos. I think the main dining room is my favorite.

Speaker 2:

That's great. One of our great attributes really are art. If you go into some clubs, a lot of golf clubs, their art couldn't be their trophies sometimes. You know their trophy room and a lot of those old trophies are pieces of art trophy room and a lot of those old trophies are pieces of art. Um for uh, for us it's our murals. And uh the uh, the foyer murals. When you come in with the zodiac, uh, you know the signs of the zodiac, I mean those are spectacular. Uh, those are uh, fred dana marsh. Uh, who actually the staten island ferry, you know, uh, he, he did, uh, uh, the waiting room out there did a a lot of work. He. We also have a mural of his in our grill room which was a layout printed the club, and then the plat murals in the dining room are spectacular too. And those, those have a purpose. They show the, the growth of Detroit from when it was really a French and Indian territory into what would have been modern day Detroit back in 1927.

Speaker 1:

And you have to take a few, like you know. Let's, let's go back a little bit. You, you have an interesting step into the club, like how did you even get started in the club and hospitality space?

Speaker 2:

You know, we were my mom, really, you know. You know my mom catered and I'm one of four boys and we all, we all worked for her, you know, and started tending bar and things like that. When I graduated school, I moved out to Los Angeles. A friend of mine was working in post-production on a TV show and he was sure he could get me, you know, hired and I crashed on his couch for a couple of weeks and he did. He got me a job, which didn't last very long, you know, but I started in post production and then I was, you know, finding myself needing to work and wanting to stay, you know, out in LA. So I went back to, to you know what I'd done through college and things like that, which was hospitality. And, you know, after bouncing around a little bit, I ended up in a couple of great places attending bar at the Formosa cafe, I worked in hospitality at the Greek Theatre, ended up working at a restaurant downtown Los Angeles it's's still there, uh, almost 30 years later which is forever in uh LA restaurant, uh, engine company 28. Um, and I worked with some great people and some great restaurateurs and, uh, you know, eventually got better at my job, you know, and uh, after a couple of kids came um, my wife was from San Francisco, we were back visiting in Michigan and she said what would you think of moving? And knew somebody who called a headhunter, who said, oh, they might have a job at the Detroit Athletic Club and I'm glad they did. I worked there for 10 years.

Speaker 2:

I loved working in clubs. I think the two things I liked is your regulars are really regular. I mean you really know your people in the club industry, which is a good thing and I loved. You know the dues. Part of it is great, and by that I mean if you work in retail when some cash shows up it gets returned to the investors. It usually you know it's going someplace and in a club if you have a good result or you know some money shows up, you pump it right back into the place and the members get paid experientially, you know through that.

Speaker 2:

And that's terrific. That's a really good thing.

Speaker 1:

And you've had, like, your tenures at places have been fairly strong, being in hospitality, I mean, even though they weren't clubs in the beginning. You know, to stay that long four years and nine years in, you know your four years at at the Greek theater, uh, then the um engine number 28,. You were there for 10 years. I think to stay for that long says something. And then you stuck so long in the club space. What was it like going from LA restaurants to Detroit to now goose point farms, michigan?

Speaker 2:

to now Goose Point Farms, Michigan, the biggest.

Speaker 1:

I'm not a job hopper.

Speaker 2:

You know I understand why people do it and for some it works. When I get a vision in my mind, you know, of what I want to see and how I want to see something shaped or where I think it should be or could be, I commit to that and I've been very lucky. I've been very. I mean, I've worked at two clubs, right, but I've worked at the Detroit Athletic Club and Country Club of Detroit. I've worked at two. You know fantastic places. But what I, what I really enjoyed about it is it wasn't what got me back to the market was wanting to be close to family and things like that. And what kept me was not just it wasn't just food service at the Detroit Athletic Club. When I was working down there. There was a, there was a vision and they were working very hard to execute it and it was not just the growth of the club, the restoration of the facility, the really overall improvement of Detroit. They were part of that. The club was committed to that and all of those things were happening at once and I was able to work with, I think, one of the best people in our business in a long, long time. You know Ted Golarry and you know the other department leaders too.

Speaker 2:

I came back to work in the dining room, did that for a couple of years. I worked in banquets. I've never done banquets before but the year I did we had and you got to remember, the DEC is right across the street from both the baseball field and the football where the Lions play. But we had the NCAA tournament that year, the Super Bowl was that year and the Tigers went to the World Series. I mean it was, you know, was an incredible banquet year. I got to learn a lot. Then came the time it's like well, let's see if you can do it yourself. A job opened up in my market. The previous managers, I think, had made some strides in getting to the club where it needed to go and you know, after touring the place I could see it finished. When I was looking at it, you know, 12 years ago now, I could see what it was going to look like and we've been on that path like and uh, and we've been on that path.

Speaker 1:

Are there any lessons or things that you learned from your mom that you still have have with you today? That's brought you? You know, that's that's woven through your career in hospitality.

Speaker 2:

My mom was always worried about, uh, her company's reputation. You know she was. That was. That was the biggest thing If you had to, uh, if you had to put a little something extra in, but you wanted to make sure that everybody was taking care of and speaking well of you. At the end of the day and I think that's really important in any business, not just hospitality If you're going to stick around for a time, it's because you do a good job and your people feel taken care of and they tell everybody else about you. So I think that's a big thing Creating an environment where people will stay.

Speaker 2:

I'm not a big, you know, if you come over here, the members know me because I've been here a long time. But the department leaders you know our chef, our assistant general manager, our chief agronomist, our pro, our director of brackets they really take the lead. I mean that's, that's they're. They're more out front, I would say, than I am, and I I think my job is to really help them achieve their goals and you know, and help them their development and their career and everything else. And that's worked out real well.

Speaker 2:

I mean that's just a style thing, but that's worked out real well for me and we've been able to keep our team together for, you know, better part of 10 years We've got an outstanding chef in Brian Beeland. You know better part of 10 years We've got an outstanding chef in Brian Beeland. You know, one of the what I think 60 or 70, you know master chefs in the country and he's been here 20 years. We've been very fortunate to keep him here that long. We hired some great top assistants that are now, you know, very accomplished, recognized professionals in their position. You know, and that's been very gratifying.

Speaker 1:

What's it like getting the position of general manager at Country Club of Detroit? And did you plan on going there? Like was that, you know it looked like were you on your way to GM of the DAC, or like what was that? Well, you never know you never know.

Speaker 2:

It looked like were you on your way to GM of the DAC, or like what was that? Well, you never know, you never know. I mean, I could have spent my whole career at the triathletic club and been very satisfied. It's one of those places that I don't know anyone that's spent any kind of time there. That just doesn't speak well of the experience, even though you work your tail off. But it is. It's a great experience. No, I didn't plan. I didn't know what I was going to do. I've never really looked that far ahead. I've never concerned myself that much with what's coming next.

Speaker 1:

Interesting For someone who loves tenure.

Speaker 2:

It's. You know again, I like who I work with and I like who I work for and I like where I work at. You know, and I think a lot of people you can. You can bounce all over the country and never have any of those, so I don't know. That's, that's what works for me, you know that.

Speaker 2:

That's what works for me and, and you know, to create that environment where people want to say to be able to keep it fresh, I think is the most difficult thing, where people want to say to be able to keep it fresh, I think is the most difficult thing. And when you do you and I spoke about this before but when you do get tenure, you know I'm at the point now where I've served twice as long as any board member. You know that's, you know, ever, ever been at the club. So in a lot of ways, when you have a longer tenured, not just general manager but even, you know, server on the floor or somebody in the dishroom, they have a lot of institutional knowledge, you know. And that's helped. I mean you can guide your, I think, club a little more because you've got you know why the precedents are set, you know why you can explain a lot of the whys behind decisions, paths, strategy and a lot of other things.

Speaker 1:

When you came into Country Club of Detroit 2013, did were they already starting this major plan in renovation that you were doing that?

Speaker 2:

I believe, yeah, they'd hired the McMahon group towards the end of 2012. And so they were already doing focus groups and things like that. So the ball was already starting to move a little bit and but you know it was a great time to come in Great time to. You know, the membership was really engaged. When you're, when you're going to do a large renovation of property, you really have to engage the membership. So that was a great time to get to know the place and a lot of the players here and everything else. And I think you know it's hard to believe it was 10 years ago and I think you know it's hard to believe it was 10 years ago. But when we opened our phase project 10 years ago, I think it was one of the best projects done in the country for a number of years and I think it's been copied a lot.

Speaker 2:

And you know there's nothing innovative here. You know clubs, especially this club, I mean we trail, you know, behind the times on purpose. We are not really adopters of anything. We like to wait and see how things are going to go. It's kind of like the Berkshire Hathaway approach to things, you know, and that's fine and that serves us and I think that's an important thing too, really knowing what the vibe of your club is and that's fine and that serves us. And I think that's an important thing too, really knowing what the vibe of your club is and that's ours.

Speaker 2:

But we didn't do anything innovative. What we did was convert a club that really hadn't been significantly invested in a long time, other than the golf course, to more resort type of experience, where you replaced, you know, just a worn out snack bar with a standalone restaurant. You know, and you know the results were terrific and it really got what we expected. We never expected members especially our older members, you know, 70 and 80 year olds that will go down to the restaurant by the pool. They're not swimming, they're just going down to that restaurant. We never thought we'd see that. You know. We thought it was really going to be to serve that, you know, community down there, but it ended up being just one more outlet. You know again, like if you were at a resort, oh, we're going to go to this place this night and this place this night. If you were at a resort, oh, we're going to go to this place this night and this place this night. So to have those opportunities at what is a traditional country club was welcome.

Speaker 1:

And did you say your clubhouse is 80,000 square feet?

Speaker 2:

It is. You know, I don't know which one of the past presidents said it, but we have a 36-hole clubhouse on 18 holes. We have a small executive course too, but when it was built it was 72,000 square feet, and in our last major phase we took a six-lane bowling alley off the first floor and put it below grade, so now we have just almost exactly 80,000 square feet. How do you move a bowling?

Speaker 1:

alley.

Speaker 2:

That was you know. I'll send you some pictures. It was one of the coolest projects I've ever been part of. They underpinned a whole wing of the club that used to have an auditorium in. It took out the old pool, which had been covered up for almost 60 years at that point, and put a foundation under the foundation so we could go down deeper and moved it downstairs.

Speaker 1:

Wait, was that, I think? Did you send me those? Was this part of this one or is it a different link? I think did you send me those. Was this part of this one or is it a different link? I think you. I think I have those. Yeah, and some before and after.

Speaker 2:

There's a before and after, and I think it's in there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's, it was pretty cool. They uh well, it was pretty cool, cause it worked. Uh nothing, uh nothing collapsed.

Speaker 1:

No, it's a beautiful, so I love bowling. I am a low-key dork Actually not really. I do magic too, so I'm clearly a dork, but I love bowling. I was in a bowling league from, I don't know, second grade to eighth grade. Then I stopped in high school because I was too cool to bowl. Then I picked it back up. It's a beautiful bowling alley and the lighting, it all looks so good, so good.

Speaker 2:

It's lighting like it all looks so good, so good. Well, it's, it's. You know, um, it's a winter activity in a Northern state and that's really important for us. Uh, uh, it's uh, one more reason to come to the club. It's got a fitness center that sits right on top of it, uh, where, where it used to be, um, where we've got, uh, about 5,000 square feet in our fitness center. Now, another amenity that you normally don't find in a very old clubhouse like ours, and you know we it was committed to doing it inside the club so we could drive business in here. We have a large footprint and we have a lot, of, a lot more land than a lot of clubs, and the easier decision really was to do another outbuilding and move it away. But we really worked hard to make that change and keep it in the clubhouse, and I think it was so important, um, to keep the uh, the clubhouse is truly the center of activity at the club because then it's probably you know who's to say you.

Speaker 1:

You know people who then go bowling and whatever. They have their things on there. Oh, let's just go up to the bar upstairs and hang out instead of going someplace else.

Speaker 2:

Where is it they had to go?

Speaker 2:

off yeah you know it's. It really doesn't matter what the activity is. Does it? Is the parking lot full or are people coming? Is it getting used?

Speaker 2:

We're, uh, we're, um, we're a neighborhood club. Most of our members are, I would say, within you know, five miles, which is great. But, you know, are people using the club? That was the most important thing for us. Are they bouncing out of here a couple times a day? You know, coming up, going to a class in the morning, maybe coming back for lunch, maybe bringing the kids to the pool, maybe someone's going golfing in the winter? Is there a reason to be here? You know. So we if places, you know if your members aren't using the club, you know when times change, you're at risk. You know you're at risk. You know you're at risk anyway. You know if, uh, when, uh, economic, uh, you know, uh, hard times come for all of us that have, you know, kind of been through that in the past. It's been good for a long, long time and that's great. But when things are tough, uh, you want to be the hardest decision to make. You know, leaving the club and we work really hard at that were any of those?

Speaker 1:

I don't know, that's probably a dumb question to say, but back when the pandemic hit, was that difficult?

Speaker 2:

at that point, in the very beginning, I think it was a lot easier for country clubs than it was for city clubs and yacht clubs and things like that where people are further away. If you're a country club and you're in your neighborhood, I mean, we became the grocery store, we became you know everything Again, just to get people here and they were, you know, to maintain that connection. If your member is 25 miles away, you know, or you know 15 to 25, that's a hard thing to do, but when you're in their backyard, you know, it was very easy. You know, I think everybody got probably more credit than they deserved during those times. You didn't have to do much to really please people, but we did, you know, we did a lot of the same thing everybody else did and it really resonated.

Speaker 1:

How many staff do you have?

Speaker 2:

You know we're right around, I'd say about 165 FTEs off-season, but if you add up the contract employees and everything else and I'm including caddies in that during the summer we get four to 450. During the summer we run a day camp. You know, we, we, we have a very robust caddy program where we'll have probably starting at the beginning anyway probably about 120 caddies, you know so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, for for that big of a place, I think I may be expected a little bit more. But how? How often is most of the 80,000 square feet being being used or utilized?

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, in this time of year, you know, in summer it's mostly dining, you know, and things like getting people in and out of the locker rooms. We get about a hundred days of summer in Michigan, so everybody's kind of outside During the off season. You know, quite a bit, we do a lot of entertaining a lot of banquet business at the club. We're not so much geared towards business, we don't do a lot of business meetings and things like that, but you know, have quite a bit. We're always operating at least two restaurants, um, you know, uh, finer dining and a casual option, um, so I'd say quite a bit. You know, we've got some overnight rooms, we've got uh, uh and just some grand space, you know throughout.

Speaker 1:

You know whether it was the dac here at the country club of detroit or any of your other um positions. Are there any programs? Are there any initiatives that you came up with implemented?

Speaker 2:

you were a part of that you're really proud of um, well, there's a lot of stuff but, like I said, I don't know that I've come up with anything. I might say, hey, let's try this and you know, and things like that I think when you start pushing your capability a little bit downtown when downtown Detroit started really getting busy with, like the year I told you, with the you know Final Four and the Tigers going to the World Series and the Super Bowl there, they're not just there but like across the street when you become such a busy venue and you're used to a level of business, but when all of a sudden you're doing two and three times that level of business, it really pushes you to get better, to try to get a little innovative, to try to move things around, though working through those kind of difficulties and kind of leaning into failures when they happen have been. I think those are the things that really allow an organization to be transformative and to move from one level to another. When I started here we weren't like busy, busy that often, and when we did, we struggled through it. But then as our revenue started to grow, as the membership started to grow, as usage started to really grow I mean 8% and 10% every year, year over year for almost nine years.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was, it was. You know, it was like, you know, kind of, yeah, china growth when China was growing, like that I mean it was, it was, it was a lot to manage, but it really forces you to get better and because, if you know, in this business, if the membership starts feeling the pain of that growth, they're going to want to pull back on the throttle really quick because it's negatively impacting their experience. Try to manage it as well as you can, thinking a little forward and things like that in order to have it. You know, not necessarily change the culture too fast to change the experience too quick, or or you're going to leave.

Speaker 1:

You know you're going to leave some cash on the table, oh yeah. How do you decompress, how do you relax? Do you watch movies, read watch shows, read, read, read books. What's your?

Speaker 2:

what's your deal? You hit a couple of big ones my wife and my wife. My wife and I, you know we're in Los Angeles, we're big movie folks, but we're we're we're dialogue driven independent movie folks, you know, and, and a great movie for me or my wife Joan is one that we could go out and have a cup of coffee or a bite after and talk about for an hour. That's the kind of movie we like. I love to read. I know Ted. When I worked with Ted Giller he was always a big management book guy. You know Doug Collins was great and all that and you know a lot of great lessons in there. I prefer to learn those lessons from histories. So I'm a big reader not a lot of novels, but mostly histories. But when I'm in my car I have about a 30 minute commute. That's always books on tape and that's usually where I do novels and things like that. And when I can get away I love to fly fish.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, we were talking about that early Cause. You're asking me about PA, like oh, you fly fish. I'm like no, my friends who do.

Speaker 2:

You got a lot of. You got a lot of good places in Pennsylvania, for sure.

Speaker 1:

So I've heard. So I've heard Anything else you want to add?

Speaker 2:

No, I just feel well, it was really nice talking to you, you was well, I think you do a really good job. But I, like you know, for people in this business, sometimes we get caught up. I don't know. I see some of our younger members not members but managers sometimes where they, you know, they get ground down a little bit, a little tired, and I just I think they haven't had enough crappy jobs yet. You know, having a couple of tough places that you worked at, you know, having having a couple of tough places that you worked at, and I tell my kids at home and a lot of the young folks here, every place you work at is going to teach you either what to do or what not to do. You know, and you need a couple of both really in your career to figure that out. I think I think working in clubs is the, in a lot of ways, really the pinnacle of the hospitality industry and I feel like I fell into it. But boy am I glad you know 22 years later that I did.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So you know, with my to add on that, with my background in the entertainment and performing and doing a magic show, even like comedy shows, all performers and as you can probably attest to as well a little bit, you know being in the production world it's. You know, especially early on in my career I forget who told me, or it was just like sort of ingrained a little bit it was take every gig that came and purposely put yourself in bad positions at gigs, because then at that point if you put yourself in a positions at gigs, because then at that point if you put yourself in a bad position, meaning it could be bad angles, it could be just without a microphone. You know bad positions can mean so many different things. But purposely being in these awkward, weird bad positions, so it's when you, when you are in there without wanting to be there, you could. Like you're, you're not, you know you're not swimming in dead air. Like you're, you're, kind of you, you could like you're.

Speaker 2:

You're not. You know you're not swimming in dead air like you're. You're kind of, you've already been there, you know how to work, work through it. So it's not a whole new, that's. And and if there's uh, if there's been a change in uh, uh, generationally is I think there is a struggle with resilience, um, uh, especially with some of the younger folks that I see, especially with younger men, but maybe that's just what I'm seeing in our market. But what you just said, that's resilience and failure is a great teacher. And to get back up and to get through things. Sometimes the younger staff or they think, oh, you just know all these things, no, I've suffered through these things in the past is more accurate.

Speaker 1:

All right, sir, I want to thank you so much for coming on, really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Hope you all enjoyed that episode. If you did like, share, sir, I want to thank you so much for coming on, really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Hope you all enjoyed that episode. If you did like, share, subscribe If you did like, and share it with a friend, a colleague, someone you like, someone you don't like. Sharing is caring. Rating means the world as well, along with a review If you're enjoying the content. That's this episode, until next time.

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Denny Corby

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