Private Club Radio Show

416: Elevating Your Influence Through Effective Feedback w/ Anne-Maartje Oud

• Denny Corby

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What if understanding behavior could transform how you lead and communicate in your club? This week, I welcomed back the incredible Anne-Maartje Oud, founder of The Behaviour Company, to share more of her expertise on leadership, communication, and the subtle power of body language.

In this episode, Anne dives deep into the practical tools every leader needs to create trust, inspire teams, and navigate tricky situations with confidence. From decoding non-verbal cues to delivering feedback that lands well, Anne-Maartje’s insights are all about making leadership more effective—and a little easier.

We discuss:

  • The hidden impact of body language in member and staff interactions.
  • How to spot signs of disengagement and re-engage your team.
  • Practical techniques for managing conflict without defensiveness.
  • Why leaders who master communication are better at creating loyalty and connection.

Whether you’re a seasoned GM, department head, or just starting your leadership journey, this episode is packed with actionable advice that will help you connect more deeply and lead more effectively.

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Speaker 1:

Hey everybody, welcome to the Private Club Radio Show, where we give you the scoop on all things private golf and country clubs, from mastering leadership and management, food and beverage excellence, member engagement secrets, board governance and everything in between, all while keeping it fun and light. Whether you're a club veteran just getting your feet wet or somewhere in the middle, you are in the right place. I'm your host, denny Corby. Welcome to the show. In this episode, I am thrilled and honored to have back on the show a favorite guest, ann Machiaaud, who's a certified behavioral ninja, the founder of the Behavior Company, with over 20 years experience helping leaders understand the subtle power of body language and non-verbal cues. And in this episode we dive into how club professionals can elevate their communication skills, strengthen their team dynamics and even calm angry members or personnel without even breaking a sweat. We chat about her techniques for reading the room, spotting nonverbal cues like the turtleneck and creating environments where both staff and members feel truly seen and valued. If you enjoyed the first episode we did together, you're going to really enjoy this one, because we go into the nuances of just communication in particular, particularly. Did I even say that? Right, I don't even know, but in leadership and interpersonal interactions. She is a true expert, professional and one of the top people in her field in the entire world who does this, and still super thrilled and honored to have her here on the show sharing with you all. It's so good. I'm super excited. Before we get to the episode, quick thank you to some of our show partners Concert Golf Partners, kenis Member Vetting and Golf Life Navigators We'll hear about them a little bit more later on as well as myself.

Speaker 1:

The Denny Corby Experience it is not just a comedy magic show. This is an experience for your members. They are going to talk about for years and years to come. The show is all about crowd work and engaging and interacting with your members. It's an absolute blast To learn more. Head on over to dennycorbycom and, while you're at it, head on over to privateclubradiocom. Make sure you're subscribed to the newsletter because I am releasing the Club Entertainment Guide All things club entertainment, from getting creative to do's and don'ts. We have guest articles. It is epic. If you want early access, we're going to be releasing that soon. Head on over to privateclubradiocom. Sign up for the newsletter. We'll send it to you when it's ready. Enough about that, let's get to the episode. I'm excited Private Club Radio listeners.

Speaker 1:

Let's welcome back to the show Ann Macha-Odd. Ann Macha-Odd, we are so excited to have you back. Thank you so much for coming. Not just a communication expert, you're a certified behavioral ninja. I mean, you are just absolutely fantastic at what you do. You train CEOs, executives, professionals, fortune 500 companies, fortune 100 companies, big companies, small groups, large individuals, small. You do the works. Last episode we had on was fantastic. We dove into nonverbal cues. We talked about the helicopter metaphor, which was fantastic, and we got such great feedback and when I asked you to come back on so happy you said yes and Matcha Out. Thank you so much for being back on the show.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you so much. I'm blushing here now People cannot see it if they're listening to a podcast, but it's such a great introduction. Thank you so much, and I'm very happy to be here because we had a blast in the conversation last time and I love your energy. You're always so, you know energetic and it's good to talk to you and fun to talk to you. So, thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

Yay, so let's, let's start with leadership. When we're talking about professionals, talking about leadership, the show here, you here. We're all about private golf and country club professionals. When it comes to, because all of this really boils down to, I would say, impactful communication, is there any? I don't want to say classic blind spots, but are there just maybe typical blind spots when it comes to the people that you work with? When it comes to, like, nailing the communication, maybe their message isn't landing, how and why and what? Some of the maybe common reasons are that leaders fail to connect and kind of how they can start to flip that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's, it's a common theme, you could say, and what I usually see is that they are so focused on content. What do I want to say? This is my message and I want to get that across. This is what people prepare in conversations, also when it's a difficult conversation. What they usually do not prepare or what they do not focus on is, for instance, the procedure, or where they do not focus on is, for instance, the procedure.

Speaker 2:

So when am I going to say this specific message, or when is it the best time to get it across? Maybe somebody is already working with somebody and they're just blurring it out. So the procedure is important, but also the interaction, and they don't prepare I would say, rarely prepare. Oh, I'm going to have a conversation with this specific person or this specific client and I need to adjust my behavior. Instead of, this is me, I'm saying something. You have to understand my message. Bye, thank you. And I'm not saying that people are this blunt all the time, but it's very important that you understand. Okay, I do have a message, but in which way can I sculpt it? So the whole scenery, the whole message and the whole setting to land, to actually let that message land.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, is it? Is it, is it empathy? Is that where? Like, maybe is it? Is it a lack of empathy sometimes, or is it? They are just so scripted and they, they, they kind of have it like in their head like, okay, I need to talk to this person and do X, Y and Z and then be done, whereas they're not kind of reading and understanding the situation and going, okay, maybe now is not the time to say that exact thing. Okay, hey, let's maybe pivot a little bit, let's come back to that. Let's talk about X, y and Z first, and then is it kind of like they're in their set ways and they're not malleable in the way that they're communicating.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it might be their set ways, but it could also be stress, that they have their own stress because something needs to be done very quickly or something is happening in the club that needs to get attention straight away and they don't understand that how they feel also interacts or affects their behavior. It could also be the strict way some leaders have grown into their leadership and have developed a certain style and they might be very good with that style, but sometimes that specific style is not applicable for, you know, that kind of message or that certain situation or that person. And it's not always that they don't have empathy, because I think a lot of people do have empathy, but they don't always know how to show it.

Speaker 1:

How do you, when you, when you work with people, how? What's a step to opening them up to that empathy? If someone's maybe not that empathetic, what's that first step?

Speaker 2:

Well, if we talk about empathy, it's a difficult subject because, as I said, I do believe that people have empathy, but they don't always know how to show it. Believe that people have empathy, but they don't always know how to show it. So, first you go and analyze or this is what I do is to analyze when you do have empathy, how do you show it? What is your specific way? And if they understand, oh, my form of empathy is saying you know, or not saying anything but a thumbs up, are you okay? Oh, that's your style. But if somebody's crying, what could a different way of empathy or showing empathy be?

Speaker 2:

So I think it also has to do with knowing who you are as a leader, what you're showing and if it's the right way of doing that. And what I try to do when I work with them is to see that there's a whole different palette that they can choose from. This behavior so far, fantastic, got you very far, it's really good. But there are also other ways of showing, for instance, empathy. Or if you have to say something negative, or correct somebody with feedback, there are many, many ways of doing that. So we try to show them the whole palette. Yeah, thinking about that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. What's a, what's a common mistake? You see that I never. Oh my God, I just, I just sorry.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you also left. That was a bit awkward.

Speaker 1:

So I didn't realize, I, I, I, I, I went to go take like notes, to like like circle back on stuff. I didn't have my like paper there, so I and I went to go grab a paper. I already said some, some stuff on it.

Speaker 2:

You see me looking like that, like okay, but I thought, well, let's not comment on. This is hilarious, jenny. What's going on?

Speaker 1:

are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? Take a deep breath, grabbing a pen grabbing a pen, let's you're a pro at reading the room. Walking into a space, what are some maybe nonverbal cues? We talked about some last time, but what are some other maybe cues? Maybe, maybe not, maybe there's some new ones that screams something isn't off, you know, or something's not right here. Um, what? What are some of those? How can they spot them? I feel like sometimes it's like a gut thing. Also, sometimes it's sometimes hard to put your finger on it Exactly. You just know something's up. But from your point of view, working with professionals in all different industries, what are maybe some common things that to look out for? That goes, hmm, something's not right here.

Speaker 2:

Maybe something is off here. I would say it's a gut feeling, but it's also knowing your club, because if you understand, oh, when things are going great, it's buzzing or it's actually quiet depends on what setting you are, of course and you see something it's of, because I would say it has to do with observation, listening and observation then you might be able to look further into this, like what is going on. And, of course, I would advise people to also look at body language. So, for instance, if you have a club where you want people to talk a lot, you know the buzzing sound, you listen to the buzzing sound. You can also look at the nonverbal communication. For instance, are people you know leaning towards each other, are they interacting and talking? Or is everybody you know, do they have a ventral denial, which that also is far away from the other person, or they're not having eye contact, all those kind of things. You can spot what's off, but you first have to know what am I looking for actually?

Speaker 1:

It's the feet too right. You watch people's feet and how they're kind of positioned, you can kind of feel like where it's, because I think hip is probably better. But yeah, I think I picked that up from Joe's book. Actually, it's just like you just kind of like how people are, it's so and I don't know if it's I'm just more like I pick up on it more because of like magic and just having to like read that room. It is to me so obvious people do not pick up on like social cues or just like can take a step and just like read and understand, like oh, someone's trying to get out of this conversation, like you don't know how to like stop it right now. Like you can tell they're not interested and you're still going on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Because people are so focused on themselves.

Speaker 2:

And one of the things I always said I don't know if I said it last time, but the best conversations they are there when there's comfort for both parties.

Speaker 2:

And if you only focus on yourself, like, oh, I'm having a great time and I'm talking to you, but you do not observe the other person fidgeting or looking at their watch, or exactly as you say that the feet are already towards the door, then you're missing out on cues. That the feet are already towards the door, then you're missing out on cues. But it could also be and this is why I think it's even more interesting those subtle moments when you also hear it in the prosody, so you could say if somebody's saying, yes, I'm having a great time, then you could actually think, oh, they're having a great time. But if we listen to the sentence and it goes like, yeah, I'm having a great time, we already hear the nuance. And it's so fantastic, when you combine that with body language, to see what's happening in my club. And are people having a great time or is there something off the way they say? It is also very intriguing all the time.

Speaker 1:

Ooh, that is very good. One of my favorite quotes is be more interested, be more, be more interested than interesting.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I love that because it's and, of course, in this conversation, I would love to ask you a hundred questions, but that's not the setting now, so I will talk more. But it's so. It's so great to so great also as club managers or leaders, to not have a conversation with you telling them about your club, but connect with your clients, ask questions, genuine questions, and to find out what makes them tick or what they like about the club. Or so many people just want to say something and, yeah, and if you understand, okay, we need people to be able to vent. People love to vent and to say stuff and it's fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, oh, man, I feel like we can go in so many fun different directions now when it comes to communications. Is there a I don't want to say like doing this and your expertise of kind of like breaking down those invisible walls, breaking down those barriers, to where you can kind of really create a really good team vibe? And when I say team vibe that's you know, with your own team, with the members, just kind of like in that realm.

Speaker 2:

So when you look at a good vibe again, that means that you understand how you, when your team is having a good time or when they are actually professional. So it's a very broad question. But breaking down walls in any situation, whether it's with a client or with your team, has to do with understanding what is needed in that moment and also that, when you're a leader in that situation, that people trust you so that you're trustworthy, that you are able to show that you know what you're doing and that you know where everybody needs to go or what needs to be done, but also that you validate. And I would say that's one of the most important things that I come across in wherever I work is the validation of the people that are there.

Speaker 2:

And validation is not just nodding and saying thank you that you're here, which a lot of people didn't used to do, but now that's already has changed, so that's a good thing. But validation is essential to create an atmosphere where you don't feel that boundary. And it doesn't have to be very informal you can still be that formal club if you want to be but validation is I'm seeing you, I'm hearing you, I'm acknowledging you and I'm listening to you in many, many ways, and how you can validate is sometimes by taking the time five minutes with your employee to talk about their day, or sometimes you can listen to their complaints. It has many, many, many forms, but in essence I would say, to answer your question, that the walls come down with validation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, would you consider that like a principle?

Speaker 2:

But you also have ambassadors, because if they feel connected to a club, as I assume they have, you know families and everything's happening there. It's different than. Oh, I'm just going to go to the club to play some golf.

Speaker 1:

It is a community and that's what you can expand on if you do the right things. And that's what you can expand on if you do the right things, yeah, yeah, they are very big communities and where people are coming and they want this to be like an amazing place. And yeah, you've worked. You know, like I said, finance nonprofits, for-profits, high stakes, hospitality. Is there maybe something that private clubs can steal from the other fields to kind of level up their dynamics or their member experience? Is there maybe a common theme or maybe something you've seen among the other industries that you worked that clubs can take and run with?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think that comes down to the thing we were just talking about, because if you want to have a club that stands out, you have to be different than others. Of course, that's logical. But how are you going to be different than others? What is your speciality? And it's not in the well, maybe it is in the champagne you're serving, but it has to do with people and we're always connecting with others.

Speaker 2:

And if you feel that you have a genuine connection with somebody in a professional way, because you don't want somebody to be too informal with you, in a way depending on the club, of course, but I think if you really make make your club stand out also in behavior, what, what is our way of behaving? What is what we're really showing here? So, not just the concept, but also to translate all these values that people have on the wall or on the posters or or in a manual, how do I transform that in and transfer that into my own behavior? But also, when I'm interacting with others and what I love when I'm working with other companies or nonprofit organizations, it always comes down to this how are we going to show it? How are we going to actually not only stand out in our words and in our knowledge, or the food or all those kinds of things that are happening in a club. But when somebody would meet me in the street and they would say, oh, that's this guy from the club, I remember him because he did this and this and this, because then you will create ambassadors, and that's what what clubs need, even if they already have a great track record. That's where you stand out with the people and with the behavior great track record.

Speaker 1:

That's where you stand out with the people and with the behavior. Yeah, I want to. I was checking my notes. I want to circle back, um, when we were talking about body language a little bit and just like reading people in the room a little bit, uh, listening, you know. One of the things we were talking about was, you know, people think that they're good listeners, but the reality is that they're horrible. Is there a way that our club managers or people in general can up their listening skills? Is there a way to enhance or elevate your listening skills to build better relationships? How do you become a better listener?

Speaker 2:

There is a way you become a better listener by zipping it. That's what I would say. For the first thing, because a lot of people, as we just discussed, are talking all the time you and I as an exception now, because this is okay and one of the things you can do is, when you listen to somebody, try to the words they're using, try to kind of rehearse well, not rehearse it, but repeat it in your head, because the language that that person is using and the words that they are using can help you when you are kind of summarizing what they've just said, not to make your own version of it, but to actually oh, this is the person that said that kind of word, so I would like to be here with my brothers and sisters. Then you repeat, okay, brothers and sisters, and that's different than, oh, I want to be here with my family. So a very specific word that they use is something you repeat in your head so that you can say that after you've listened to this person. And also, if then they're nodding, you see, okay, I've listened and I've listened well, because I'm using the right words.

Speaker 2:

If you don't know if it was the right thing, you can always ask them. So did I summarize that correctly, or is this something that I left out? And then that means that you're not only listening in the moment that they're speaking, but you're also checking what you've heard. When it comes to body language, I would also really love it if that's advice that I want to send out into the world almost is not just eye contact, but body language all over, because if somebody is saying something, you're also listening with your eyes, so to say. You're observing not just the text, not just the prosody, not just the formulation of the sentences, but also you're observing this person and what are they emphasizing on. So if I'm saying this is really important, or I'm saying this is really important, you know you're listening and you're hearing things in a different way way well, and and for that it's also, I think, maybe going back, maybe to the very beginning, where we were talking about those those one-on-one interactions.

Speaker 1:

It's how are, how? Are you saying what you want to say? Are you consciously saying the words and the sentences in a happy like? Are you conscious of how you are verbally saying those things like you're doing a really good job verse, you are doing a fantastic is? Are you also thinking about how you're coming across? Um, yes, yeah, and it's when. I think, when it comes down to all of this too, it's. It's.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to the word exhausting is the wrong word but like it's a men, it's mentally like you have to be on when you're really in it and when I say like work in the room, so to speak.

Speaker 1:

But when you're like in a situation where, like you, you know, are whether it's a party, an event, a big event at the club, wherever when you're looking, watching and listening, it's a. It's a like you, your brain's firing on all cylinders because you're taking in all because you're in, so it's not just the eyes and listening. It's a. It's a like you, your brain's firing on all cylinder because you're taking in all because you're in. So it's not just the eyes and listening and watching. It's the smells, what's what's going on around? What's the you know is the is something burning. Is that why, maybe it's all the senses are just like, um, like fires. I think, to be doing all this like it's. It's a mentally exhausting thing to be like in it and assessing everything that's going on it is, but it's also very rewarding, and I would call it situational awareness.

Speaker 2:

So this is what I teach situational awareness. What can I observe, what can I see, what can I look out for? What do I need to focus on? What kind of things do stand out in this room? And well, you used the words exhausting, and it might be intense, but it's also fantastic, because if you get a hang of it, if you really understand oh wait, a minute, I can look at things in a different way and actually make things better with it then you're on fire, because then you see something, you go there, you help this person, you get a thank you, you go to the next situation and, of course, you don't have to do this all by yourself. If you train your staff to see all of this, then it's not just you, and that's what I see happening a lot in businesses as well, that one person is really good at it, but they forget to train the other people to observe the room or or have their senses on fire, so to say it's sort of uh.

Speaker 1:

The first thing that pops into my head was uh, did you read unreasonable hospitality? Will will gadara I haven't.

Speaker 1:

No, tell me what is a great great book, uh, he, he, uh, he worked for danny meyer, uh, and he I think he still owns, uh 11, madison park, like a fantastic restaurant in new york city, uh, like, believe, like michelin stars, all this stuff. But like training the staff and just how they work the room, and there is secret signals that as soon as like they, they would show up and I don't know if it was like their drink order or what type of water that they liked, but by the time they got from the hostess stand to the table, the proper water was already in place because the server or the hostess cued the person. They pulled the ear. That meant tap or whatever it was meant tap or whatever it was. But there's these little signals and things that everybody just knows because they're so well-trained that everybody's on that same wavelength, that same aura, that they can feel it all together.

Speaker 2:

And then still, this is fantastic. But I love this example because even if you have the perfect drink and oh, it's there in front of you, but they didn't because they were just a little bit too slow so they didn't do everything right, but in the end they tried, but you feel it. So there could be a trained behavior. But the best restaurants and it can even be your coffee shop is where there's this welcoming feeling that is applicable for that specific guest or that is needed for that guest, because some guests want hey, hi, how are you Welcome? And some want to have no interaction. But if you do the same thing all the time, then that might not even be a good thing, because maybe today he wants another drink. So it's also that very subtle feeling of is this still? Is this, are we still on track? But I fully understand what you mean.

Speaker 1:

You have the signals and if you have things in order, then you know what to do so yeah that's a fantastic thing to see if, uh if people are well trained and with the different technologies that are out there and becoming available for hospitality and clubs. You know being trained and being able to look at a person's profile, like in clubs. You know people coming back day after day. You know, sometimes every single day the staff member can go and see, you know, as soon as they come in here's their order, here's their likes, their dislikes. And see you know, as soon as they come in here's their order, here's their likes, their dislikes and being able to take the information and look and read and just like understand the room. Like, oh, he always orders a bourbon and whatever, and now he got a beer. Like, oh, that's, that's a little bit off. Or he always orders it Things aren't everything, okay, mr Phil, or something. You know what I mean. Like, it's just those little I think moments. I don't think.

Speaker 2:

I interrupt you. That's what I mean with validation, because then you know it's not just on the list, but something might be off. And you have to be careful, of course, because some people don't want to be asked about a different day, or they don't want to be asked about their private situation in in a setting, in a in the club, that that they don't want to talk about, but it's the fact that you pick up on it and then you can start reading the body language and if somebody is still, you know, happy and up, then you don't have to ask the question if something is off. But if somebody is a bit down and you see the turtleneck a little bit tilts its head, then you can ask something hey, is there something wrong? I wouldn't say if there's something wrong, but can I ask why you are having a beer today instead of the bourbon? If you want to, and depending on the guest, of course.

Speaker 1:

The turtleneck. What is the turtleneck?

Speaker 2:

What is the turtleneck? It's a bit difficult to explain on a podcast because I have to visualize it, but in a way it's tilting, it's making your neck disappear. So usually when people are a bit off or they're a bit, you know it could be a bit stressed or they. It's tilting your chin towards your chest and what we usually also see is a bit of the shoulders that are coming up. So it's kind of like when you if I would describe it, when a child is being told that they're naughty or something, you see that their behavior they kind of like a turtle.

Speaker 1:

They retract the neck and we see this behavior. Yeah, the shoulders come up, the neck goes down, oops.

Speaker 2:

Oh dear yeah, and it could be in that setting that they're feeling a bit awkward. Oh, I did something wrong. But we can also see this happening when people are stressed. So the opposite when people are happy or they feel more comfortable, we usually see a body posture that is more open, broader gestures, more eye contact, more open torso. On the other hand, if people are a bit more stressed or they feel less comfortable, we tend to see behavior where we take up less space and it could be again with a torso, you know, hands closed, more into your body, but also the turtleneck is a way of kind of making yourself smaller. So that's the turtleneck.

Speaker 1:

You can look out for those things.

Speaker 2:

It's important to see if people are like that, but they also can read their iPhone. You know, that's what you see sometimes. Just having the turtleneck reading the phone.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and just having the turtleneck reading the phone yeah, one of the things that's been a hot topic. But leadership isn't about a title or a position. I think good leadership is about how you can influence people and decisions and that sort of stuff. How can managers, club professionals, build influence with their teams? Let's just say they do or do not have a high position or level, but how does somebody start to build their influence around their team, their position where they're at and just their own self?

Speaker 2:

One of the things I say is know your role, know your goal. If you are fully aware of the role you're in at that moment and you know what you want to achieve, that's where you can build on the behavior. And of course, then it has to do with who is my team, who are my colleagues. But it starts with that, because you might want to influence somebody, but it could not be appropriate at that time or not in your role. So you have to influence somebody else, to influence the person you want to influence.

Speaker 2:

So it starts with actually understanding why am I here, what am I bringing to this meeting or situation? And am I self-reflective enough to understand what I do? And if that is effective in that moment, and if you understand oh, I have a team that is very eager to share their opinions then you can say okay, how can I influence them? It's by learning about their opinions and understanding what they need. But if you are in a group, if you're working with different cultures, for instance, or if you're working abroad, you have to understand oh, maybe this is a bit more hierarchical that's a difficult word for me in english, hierarchical and then, um, you might influence them in a more way that is more direct or more focused on. This is what we're going to do now. So, but know your role, know your goal is essential for influence and uh, that word is hard for me too.

Speaker 1:

I can't even say it.

Speaker 2:

I'm happy for that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's, it's, yeah, a lot of words I can't pronounce.

Speaker 2:

No, yeah, me being Dutch and I and it's like sometimes it sneaks in. That's the Dutch background.

Speaker 1:

Hi, yeah, I can't, I don't even know. There's too many words and there are too many letters. I can't, I didn't even know there's too many words and there are too many, too many letters. So so help me understand then. So let's just say what if it's somebody in a lower level let's just say banquet server or just like a server how can they start, you know, asserting their influence a little bit more, trying to become that more influential person? So it's like okay, I know, I'm the server, my goal is to uh, make sure members have a great experience, get the food out on time, uh, assess, make sure you know if anything's running late, try to ease that, um, keep the members happy, what? So now, what's a way to now see the situation at that and then enhance your leadership or your influence in your leadership?

Speaker 2:

yeah, it's a great way to start. As you already said, if somebody already knows, okay, this is why I'm here and this is what I'm doing. The next part I would say is to understand um, what, what is the influence and why do you want it? So, is it to is it to I don't know become better in the club and get more money or those kinds of things, or is it actually to build on the club goals and to become better at it? Because what I see the best influence comes from connecting with the goal that that specific company has. So if I'm an employee and I have feedback on something that is happening in the club, but I actually can build on it so this is what I've observed and make it specific and then come up with an idea to change it, and it connects with the goals that the club has and it connects with the way the club wants to show the behavior, show the goals or show the values. Then you see that this person is getting validated again. This is a great idea. So the influence becomes bigger because they are not just doing what they need to do.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people are good at their job, but they don't do this little extra thing. And the extra thing is not doing too much and exhausting yourself, but taking things to a little higher level by observing your situation and trying to make it better every time. What can I do to make this a tiny little bit better? And if you can't do that, if your influence stops at that moment, then it is the question how can I make others aware so that that influence, what I don't have at this moment still happens, or that little thing that needs to be changed, is still happening? And if you have a good manager, this person will pick up on an employee that is doing that. The manager will see oh, this employee is not just doing the job, they're making it a little bit extra all the time. Even if they don't have their own influence at that point, they're telling others to make things better. And that's where your influence starts, because people will know you, that's that employee. He's doing or she's doing or they doing better things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then I think we touched on this too. But then it's, once you have your own goals and you see what you're trying to do and you know your role, is it then looking at your higher ups, your whoever, and then starting to really understand what their goals are and try to get into their head and try to figure out where you're at and if, if, if the goal is to you know, maybe move, adapt and start start going, you know, in higher, higher levels and positions. But is it then going trying to understand the other people's goals and how your goals help theirs, and kind of that sort of route?

Speaker 2:

and how your goals help theirs and kind of that sort of route. Yeah, that would be really helpful. But also you can ask what can I do to get on a higher level or something? It's not always like a magical situation. Sometimes you can ask what is needed in this situation, but by understanding others by understanding their goals, as you say, but also understanding the bigger goal what is it that we're doing here Then you create an atmosphere and a behavior that is exceptional, and that's what you're aiming for. But if you ask what can I do to enhance my situation, that is always a good way to start, because then you can help yourself and others.

Speaker 1:

Is there a difference between influencing an individual versus a group?

Speaker 2:

What do you think, danny? Yes, there is, although you could say that the principles are the same. But when you have to influence a group, of course there are more individuals and then you cannot always use the same method for everybody. If I have to influence you, it is in a way easier because I might know you or I know your preferences or I know what you prefer, those kind of things. If there's a whole group, there might be individuals who have a different approach. So it's not possible. It's very, very well possible. But you have to understand oh, these are all individuals.

Speaker 2:

And then it's kind of helpful to create more common way of influencing others. And we do see that, especially when you're in a club, which is already a group in itself. They're already connected, they already feel connected with each other. If you have a good interaction and you have a good club, so that is already helpful because you can build on that. And then you can address the group with the common theme they have or the common goals they have or the common behavior they like.

Speaker 2:

But you have to be careful that you don't see the group as one individual who likes a certain way of influencing. So when you are influencing, first try to prepare it and try to see what's the, what's a common way of of influencing these people. Or and that's a different approach you influence the people who are well, you could say, the leaders of the club or the influential people in that club, because they can help you to influence the others. So sometimes you want to influence the whole group, but you can also say, okay, what if I start with four people? Maybe I know how to approach them, maybe I know how to interact with them very, very well and they can help others to get this certain goal done. If you understand what I mean oh 100, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then in my head I just put it into my like magic terms, like so I was like, oh my god, yeah, like it's so funny. Um, no, because I was just thinking like it's, you know, uh, more so, for, like the close-up mix and mingle stuff, uh, the some, like the first groups that you approach and work with, are like the most important. So I always try to find like the most fun and like the I don't want to say like rowdy, but like the people who have the influence, who know a lot of people, because then once they have fun and people see them having fun and them interacting and engaging, um, exactly, then it's people like, oh well, if they're having fun, it must be good. Like, oh he, oh, okay, yeah. Then so when, when you go over to anybody else, like, oh he, yeah, I saw what you're doing over there.

Speaker 1:

Um, so like same but like different. But yeah, yeah, that's interesting. What? Um, as we start to wrap up here, uh, taking up too much of your time. Thank you so much. Um, when it comes to feedback, do you have any communication tips for professionals, club professionals, club managers, how they can work with feedback and give feedback without causing defensiveness. Is there a way to structure proper feedback?

Speaker 2:

So it's depending on what is the goal of the feedback. Again, we're talking about the goal, because feedback in itself is usually used and this is the right way, I would say, to get something done, to influence somebody. Also, positive behavior, positive feedback, you can endorse, you know, by giving feedback. But the essence is that we have to understand that it holds a few key elements, and one is the behavior that is observed, or that what you've heard or what you've noticed. So that's very, very factual, and you describe this behavior, and this can be to a member or an employee, and then you have to describe the effect of that behavior. What is it that is happening because of that behavior? And then, thirdly, is what is needed in this moment? So the actual wish or rule, maybe even of the last part of the feedback, is needed as well.

Speaker 2:

And what I see sometimes is that either people do not describe what they have observed, so they just say, okay, this is what is needed, now leave, but then people do not learn.

Speaker 2:

So there needs to be a learning loop in there, and the people that get the feedback almost needs to be a learning loop in there, and the people that get the feedback almost need to be ready for that feedback.

Speaker 2:

And of course, I have to be nuanced here, because if it's a situation where you need to take action immediately, you have to be very blunt. This behavior is unacceptable. Please describe the behavior so you could say the way that you're shouting at our employee now is not acceptable. We want you either to be silent or we want you to leave the club. It's your choice. So that could be very, very strict. But if it's a more nuanced situation, you can be a bit more calmer. I've noticed that you've put your golf clubs in that corner. We have an actual room for it, so we would like to ask you to put it in that room. So then it's a bit more calmer in a way. But the feedback is needed in a professional company to become better and this learning loop is important, because we need this learning loop in a club or in a company or in any setting to become more professional.

Speaker 1:

Is there one behavior, one mindset that you'd encourage the club managers, the club professionals who are listening, to start practicing, working on enhancing tomorrow? Is there one thing that, like you, it's like your thing, that you're just big on that you encourage everyone to just work on and do every single day?

Speaker 2:

I love that question. I think people are already doing a lot of good things these days to because they understand that human contact is more important than ever, and what I would say is that enhance on that. And if there's something that they need to focus on, I would say try to create comfort for both parties, so not just for the other person, but also for yourself. Take yourself into consideration, but the other way around don't just think about yourself, also take the other person into consideration. Because if we see that there's comfort for both people, created by body language, created by a slower voice, lower voice, more calm, more relaxed, we see that people can become a bit more relaxed and we all need that.

Speaker 1:

So I like that concept of helping each other out a bit by creating comfort would you say that that's a piece of advice that you've given that stuck with most, most people yes, because there's a lot of escalation going on and I always see that you cannot always prevent that.

Speaker 2:

And in in clubs, because they're members, it doesn't mean that it should happen. But you see sometimes that everybody's stressed, we're on edge, everybody's busy and without people even knowing they're more on edge sometimes, so they're a bit more agitated or a bit more frustrated. Now, instead of adding on to that when that will not be effective, it's more helpful to think about okay, this is the behavior I'm seeing. What can I do to help this person to relax a little bit more so I can create some distance, as I'm doing, I'm talking a bit slower and in the club situation you can give your member a drink or you can just say, hey, your favorite table is ready, or all those kinds of things, but not trying to immediately get flustered or aggressive or agitated when somebody is a bit agitated in a certain setting Because, in essence, agitated in in a set certain setting, because in essence I would say a lot of people mean well, but sometimes you know they're a bit too stressed yeah, almost almost coming in on it.

Speaker 1:

Uh, coming in, if you know. You see that they're a level seven, try to come in at like a six or a five or just that little bit lower, just to help kind of bring it down a notch, just to it's like, oh, let's relax.

Speaker 2:

and again, you have to be careful because if somebody's really angry, you're like, oh, so you're angry. You know that's not, that's not helpful. So you have to be professional and genuine at the same time. But it's when, when I see this happening, when I help people by working as a leader mostly with their body language or with their prosody or with the content what is it you're saying and how are you saying it it helps actually to kind of calm people down and they are surprised oh, this is working, yes, it is working, and you did it yourself. Oh, oh, this is nice. So they're very intrigued by how behavior can affect others. But you have to be alert and the situational awareness is key.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I want to thank you so so, so much for coming on again. I love when we get to chat. You got a little something cooking Next year. People should be on the lookout. You got a little book coming out or something there.

Speaker 2:

How do you know? How do you know? Yeah, something good is happening, yeah. I'm really looking forward to that.

Speaker 1:

I will post it online. Great. I'll put a link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes below, as well as your website, thebehaviorcompanyeu, so people can follow you on the LinkedIn. You've been posting a lot of good stuff on there, so thank you, so, so, so much. I really appreciate it and look forward to next time.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me and I'm looking forward next time too. Have a great, great New Year's and all best.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, you too. I hope you all enjoyed that as much as I did, and thank you so much for being on the show. If you want to learn more, link in the show notes below to her website and her LinkedIn. Highly encourage for you to engage and interact with her Wonderful, wonderful person If you are enjoying the content, enjoying the episode. A like, share, subscribe. Anything you can do to help move our content forward means the world Doesn't cost you anything, just a little bit of time. But that is this episode. I'm your host, danny Corby. Until next time, catch y'all on the flippity flip.

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