Private Club Radio Show
Welcome to the Private Club Radio Show, the industry's weekly source for education, news, trends, and other current developments in the world of private clubs.
Hosted by the talented entertainer and industry expert, Denny Corby,
the podcast offers a unique perspective on the private club industry, featuring expert guests, product spotlights, predictions, and more.
Whether you're involved in a golf club management, yacht clubs, athletic clubs, or business clubs, the Private Club Radio Show is the essential podcast for
anyone seeking valuable insights and information on the latest trends and developments in the private club industry.
Private Club Radio Show
462: Seasonal Staffing Secrets w/ Carly Eglin & Keith Pabian
Seasonal staffing doesn’t have to be a yearly crisis. In this episode,
we sit down with Carly Eglin (CEO of Seasonal Connect) and
Keith Pabian (Founding Partner of Pabian Law) to break down how private clubs can finally get it right—from H-2B visa strategies to housing solutions, team culture, and compliance nightmares.
Whether you’re a general manager, HR director, or just tired of last-minute staffing chaos, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you attract, retain, and support seasonal workers the right way.
🔑 Topics covered:
- The 3 things seasonal workers care about most (and what clubs often miss)
- How to build housing partnerships with other clubs
- What clubs get wrong about H-2B visa planning (and how to avoid costly mistakes)
- Real talk on wages, culture, and the “break room test”
- How to legally protect your club as immigration enforcement ramps up
- The surprising ROI of treating seasonal staff like humans
Plus: The difference between clubs seasonal workers fight to return to… and the ones they run from.
If your club hires seasonal workers, this is the episode you can’t afford to skip.
🎧 Listen now and take your staffing strategy from reactive to rock-solid.
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Hey everybody, welcome to the Private Club Radio Show, where we give you the scoop on all things, private golf and country clubs, from mastering leadership and management, food and beverage excellence, never engagement secrets, board governance, and everything in between, all while keeping it fun and light. Whether you're a club veteran, just getting your feet wet, or somewhere in the middle, you are in the right place. I'm your host, Debbie Corby. Welcome to the show. In this episode, I am chatting with Carly Eglin and Keith Pabian, both from Seasonal Connect and Keith with Seasonal Connect and Pabian Law, but we're going over everything seasonal staffing. We're talking about what clubs usually get wrong before they even start, what workers really care about, and spoiler alert, it's wages, culture, and housing in that order. But we also talk about how you can get creative with your housing solutions and what other clubs are doing to get creative and why it's not just about paychecks, but also about break rooms and culture and how you set up your H2B Visa program without losing your mind. So we are just diving all into seasonal staffing, H2B, and how to make the most out of that program. Now, I first got connected with Carly and Keith. Well, we've known each other for a while, but they invited me to their staffing summit, which is a really cool event. Uh, it was in the summer. I was the evening entertainment the one night. Uh, but what they do is they bring together seasonal hospitality organizations, clubs, hotels, and get people chatting. There's talks, there's breakout sessions, there's there's panels, and it's all things collaborating, solving challenges, industry topics, everything about seasonal staffing and hospitality. So I got to pop into some of the sessions, and it was really cool to see what they had cooking. And it was an even cooler part to be a part of it. But uh, once I saw what they had going on, I was like, oh, we have to do a fun episode on all things seasonal staffing. So this is what we have here. Really great conversation. Before we get to it, quick thank you to some of our show partners. Without them, the show would not be possible. You're gonna hear their ads, you're gonna see us connect with them. If you're interested in their products or their services, reach out, let them know, hey, you appreciate their support on private club radio. And even if they're existing suppliers and vendors and people of yours, reach out and say, hey, we appreciate you supporting private club radio. In one shameless plug for myself, the Denny Corby experience. There's excitement, there's mystery, also there's magic, mind reading, and comedy, a ton of laughs, gasps, and holy craps. 2026 is booking and getting full. 2025, everything but December is sold out. Reach on out dennycorby.com. Enough about that, though. Let's get to the episode. Private club radio listeners. Let's welcome Carly Eglin and Keith Pavian from Seasonal Connect and Pavian Law. Give us a peek behind the curtain of Seasonal Connect and Pavian Law.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. So thanks so much for having us, Denny. We're excited to be here. Um I'm Carly Eglin. I am the co-founder and CEO of Seasonal Connect. Um, Seasonal Connect launched about four years ago and um is the sister company to Pabian Law.
SPEAKER_02:And I am Keith Pabian. Uh huge thanks, Denny. Uh I am the only founder of Pabian Law. Uh, we started back in 2013 and we uh help private clubs and other hospitality organizations with H2B visas and year-round options. So we are a hospitality immigration law firm.
SPEAKER_01:Got you. What do you what do you think most clubs get wrong about seasonal staffing before they even start the entire process?
SPEAKER_03:I think a lot of them don't think they're seasonal or don't realize how seasonal they are. Um, a lot of people think seasonal and think that they shut down for a portion of the year, but um that's not necessarily true at all. And so I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions. And then also I think not all clubs understand what an H2B visa is and what kind of people are working on them if they're not familiar with that kind of visa.
SPEAKER_01:Do you do you want to go oh god? So I was gonna say, do you want to go in quick and dive in? Like what is that?
SPEAKER_02:Um I a lot of the clubs that they think that there's more time to start planning. So, you know, it's so hard. They they're grinding with with whatever their season is, and the season is either just coming to an end or still going when they have to really start thinking about how to how to do things, when to start, how to start, how to do it right. And then we can talk about this more, but the there's so many clubs that just continue to follow the same way of doing things that they think need to be done, and there's a lot more cost-effective and frankly just better ways of doing things if the if they're open to trying new things.
SPEAKER_01:What are they what are they currently doing now, or what what's a common I don't want to say problem, but like what's a common speed bump or hiccup that you kind of see happening most most often?
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's crazy in this in this environment, right? That the the p politically, uh the government has allocated so much money into immigration enforcement and um I immigration customs enforcement. ICE is now the biggest federal uh enforcement agency at the government. And uh using recruiters and and using these these agencies where they're so focused on finding people, but they're not necessarily paying to what the rules are, paying attention to what the rules are, is just such uh oversight. And and I think just it has this antiquated model where you're where some clubs are still using recruiters to do the legal work or they're talking to them about uh they're they're the primary interface between the club and the worker, and they're not ever actually talking to a law firm or they're not actually looking at compliance on a day-to-day basis.
SPEAKER_01:What are what are some of the repercussions, like what are some things that could happen?
SPEAKER_02:I mean under um in the first Trump administration, uh just criminal prosecutions alone quintupled. Um, and in the first hundred days, that same trend happened. Um the government now has the ability to use its discretion to automatically deny petitions. Um we're hearing about ICE camping out outside of some clubs and pulling workers over as they're leaving and making sure they have papers. Um raids are back in vogue after 20-something years. Uh there's a lot of repercussions, and there's a lot of eyeballs on this on this world right now.
SPEAKER_01:The last thing you want is eyeballs on your club with the big, big black Humvees and expeditions, and excursions, and Taos.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and helicopters apparently too.
SPEAKER_01:Blackhawks coming in.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and I think even the workers that are are here legally are really nervous. Um, we surveyed them last month, and I think it was over two-thirds of them feel nervous working in the US. Um, and so I think that presence too is impacting the workers, which is just further creating a challenge for the clubs in terms of staffing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So so what are some ways to ease that, or what are you seeing, you know, in terms of like data and just where like everything's going? How are how are the good ones, I don't want to say taking advantage of a bad situation, but like how are they how are they staying strong and making sure that they don't feel that and that it's a good successful program?
SPEAKER_03:That's a good question. I mean, I think knowledge is power, and I think naming it for the workers can be helpful. I think if you're a club and you have H2B workers, I think you need to be talking about what's going on right now. And it doesn't have to be extremely political by any means. It can be pretty diplomatic, but just making them aware of the things they need to be doing in order to um, you know, show that they're here in legal status and you know what to do if for some reason I showed up at the club and just kind of name that for them and and reassure them and really give them some guidelines so that they um have a sense of what would happen and and why they're gonna be okay and what that looks like.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I I also I mean, using a lawyer, right, for any legal process that that goes without saying whether it's us or someone else, even though they should obviously use us. Um but the other piece of it is and and it's it's it's engaging in in programs like this. People need to stay educated and they need to understand what's going on. And uh I just think education and and learning uh is just so important right now. It just it it's where we see organizations either either succeed or fail on a daily basis.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Do you mean even almost have like I hate the word like role-playing, but like, hey, if something were to happen, here's uh like here's the correct things and what to say and what to have ready and I think that I think it's yes, it's that, and we're actually doing a webinar on that.
SPEAKER_02:But even like I'm looking at it on my desk right now, we every two weeks now we send out to clients just all the different things that have changed in the last two weeks because of government shifts and government changes and new policy implementations. And just taking the time to learn and to understand what's happening is just so key, rather than just assuming like nothing's changing and everything's gonna always be the same. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01:What uh what's like another ho is is is wages and housing a big a big topic?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, um, absolutely. I think wages, so it's funny, we were hearing a lot about housing and we were reading data that housing had surpassed um just staffing in general in terms of what's giving clubs the most trouble. Um, but when Seasonal Connect surveyed the workers in particular, they were saying wages are most important to them, then their team culture, and then housing. So I think there's a little bit of a mismatch with what the workers are looking for and then where the clubs are struggling. Um but housing and wages are definitely in the top three.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because cause you you guys collect all the info on on that from like all the parties also.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. We're trying to get we're trying to give members access to data so they can understand how they stack up against other clubs and you know, have some insight into what's going on in the industry in general.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I think this economy's weird right now. I I was saying this to someone today that it's really hard to figure it out, but in the world of private clubs, it seems like the people that have money are still spending, and and that means that the club still needs staff. But where I think the economy is weird is I think there's there are more people available and looking for jobs than there were um a few years ago. But I mean, Carly, you you talk a lot about finding the right worker and making sure that clubs have the right individual working for them has been huge.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. And I think one other thing that's worth mentioning is um for wages, these clubs have raised their wages exponentially since the pandemic, but hospitality still pays the lowest wages in all of the industries in the US. So wages are huge, but I think housing is a huge like up if they're able to provide it.
SPEAKER_02:Denny, am I allowed to ask you questions? Are you um are you hearing clubs talk about like the no tax on tip policy at all?
SPEAKER_01:Uh not not in my conversations.
SPEAKER_02:Because I I think that's gonna be I know a lot of clubs seem to be worried about that. And that's gonna be an issue, right? It's already so hard to find good hospitality workers. But if if a club is nearer, and they seem they all are, right? If there's a high-end restaurant up the street, and that high-end restaurant probably allows tipping, a lot of clubs do not have uh tipping policies. And so it's gonna make it really hard to attract good workers as that policy keeps coming into or as it takes effect and as it really I think as workers understand that they can make more money if they go down the street and work for that restaurant or that hotel.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'm sure I I think some will probably stick to their guns, others might adapt, or you know, you I think just like anybody, if you figure it out, each each club's a little bit different. Uh you know.
SPEAKER_02:I've seen clubs already starting to shift. So not all. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, there I mean, there's there's always a creative solution for everything. Yes. Um, so so how you know, so speaking of creative solutions, then how do you see and kind of going back to like handling the the housing, uh, how are clubs handling housing and like what are maybe some creative resources or solutions that you've seen work for ones that have had you know unique situations or maybe not the best scenarios?
SPEAKER_03:So some of them have housing, and I think those are the lucky ones. Um, others are building housing or building with other clubs in the area. Um, if these clubs are in an area I'll use like Naples, Florida, for example, where there's just so many clubs, you know, together in this part of the country, um, some of them are actually going in on properties together and splitting the cost and splitting the rooms. And so that's something we've seen more and more of, especially since the pandemic. Um we also there's a number of companies that help with housing. Um, Seasonal Connect has a few partners that help with it. And then one thing that we've seen with the workers is even if the clubs don't have housing, just pointing them in the right direction goes a long way. Um, instead of just saying, hey, we don't have any, and kind of leaving it to them, saying, you know, the last year workers look lived here, or we talked to this company and they have rooms available. Just some kind of direction for the workers.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we did at our staffing summit um that we do every year, we we always do some level of polling and try to give everyone a snapshot of what's going on. Um, I've noticed in the last few years we've seen a big increase in clubs that own their own housing. And so that's definitely been been something that they've looked at. You know, it also depends on where the clubs are, right? If there's public transportation, it allows for a larger circumference of where to put the workers. Um but I always tell organizations, I think it's a mistake to go down any level of international staffing if they can't tell people where they're gonna live and how they're gonna get to work, regardless of if they own their own housing.
SPEAKER_03:I agree. And we are seeing um the commute times for workers getting longer because housing may not be in the same area as the club and they have to push out um to find it.
SPEAKER_01:What are you know I it's kind of going into like the world of like you know, values? What do what do the what do the workers themselves value the most? Like, you know, you you have your ear to the ground on both the clubs and the workers. What what are what are the things that the workers value?
SPEAKER_03:In general, um, they were saying wages and we surveyed them. Wages was definitely number one. Um and I thought housing would be number two, but it was actually their team culture. A lot of them said they want to work with people who are kind and are also hardworking. They want to work with um people that are motivating and really just a team that they want to come back to. And then the third thing that they valued was housing. Um, and whether it was having housing, affordable housing, or just an employer that helps with housing to some degree, even if they don't have it, those were the big three that the workers really cared about. Um, but we could talk about housing, that could be a whole podcast. Um there's so much there.
SPEAKER_02:When I go to different clubs, because I I visit a lot as part of my job. It's so easy to see who the successful people are with staffing, or the successful clubs, who the successful ones are with staffing, and who are the ones that are struggling. And the way I always look at it is you just look at the employee breakers, right? And um, the ones that that really value the workers and and can and and have set up a room where the workers can take that breath and they feel comfortable and they're they're and they're taking the time to also show off different cultures, those are the ones that every time do incredibly well with the program. And it's not because they make they invest the money in the in the in the break room, it's because it the break room is indicative of how they're treating the workers overall. But wages is always going to be huge, right? Every every that is a huge thing. I would also say with wages comes overtime, right? Like how much overtime is available and the time and a half and all that. But even if a club is not the highest paying one, if they take the time to invest in that worker, show them that they care, treat them like a human being, and really take that extra step, they're they're doing incredibly well with their international program. And frankly, they're just staffing overall.
SPEAKER_01:Are people willing to take less if like housing and culture are good? So if a club knows it maybe can't pay the best, but it knows it could at least give them good housing or good housing options and they have a good culture, it's almost like it'll negate number one. They almost can like get away with sometimes not having you know the the the best pay, but it's like, hey, we got a great culture and like your housing's taken care of. No. Um what uh what's like what's like the average cost of how to house somebody or for someone to pay? Like, how does that work?
SPEAKER_03:It's all over the map, Keith. What are you hearing? Because I feel like you might see this more than I do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, it depends on where you are, right? So if you're in an area where um there is no housing available, like I always think of islands, come comes to mind with this. Um, the club might be fully subsidizing the cost of housing, um, or charging very, very, very little. Like it might be like 25 bucks a paper just to the worker has some skin in the game. Um but I would say it's usually about like 800 to 1,000 a month, is kind of what we see with for like a double room. Um, but that's on average, it's it really is all over the place. Um and Danny, to your question from a second ago, it really is like we always talk about recruiting is also marketing. You have to market your club. That includes when you're trying to hire staff, and it's highlighting the good, it's being honest about the bad, but it's it's talking about you know what what you're getting by coming to us. And I I always think of this. We have um, you know, everyone has their limitations. Like it might be that housing is really close to you versus like another place where they have to be in the car for two hours to get to to work. Um or it might be that um you can dime you can you can show a diagram of of when you're gonna earn overtime and and all the overtime amounts that you're gonna earn. And so the more that you're highlighting your strengths while also being strategic about highlighting your weaknesses as well, so that you're being transparent and not running into all these uh threats of uh or not threats, but uh allegations of false promises once the worker shows up, that that's how you that's how you put your best foot forward.
SPEAKER_01:What are some what are the wages at? What should people expect to what are the what are the rates that people are at now?
SPEAKER_03:It definitely varies by position. What do you think, Keith?
SPEAKER_02:I think the same answer is really geographically uh uh dependent. But yeah, go ahead, Curly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and position dependent. Um I think there's certain positions that are on the higher end, and then there's others that don't quite make as much. But like you said, Keith, it depends on where the club is located. Um and it depends, I think, how big the club is. Um that can have an effect and how their their membership is set up. It really it's so individual to the club.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but I'll say this to me, it goes back to your US wages because with a lot of the international programs, you have to pay them internationals the same as the Americans and vice versa. If you're underpaying in your market and that's why you're not attracting people, the work the the international workers are gonna know that you're underpaying in your market and they're not gonna want to work with you. And so if you're paying fair wages, you're probably gonna be okay, even because keep in mind uh there are always there's always gonna be clubs that are paying more than you, right? Everyone that that is gonna always be an issue. But if you can also, as part of the marketing during during hiring, if you can talk about cost of living and how you might not be paying the most, but it's not the most expensive to live where you are and you're gonna be able to put that money away, that that's a huge key to bring that the people into your club as well.
SPEAKER_03:That's a massive thing. If they if you can show them as a club, if you can show the workers that the cost of living is lower when your wages are might be a little bit lower, you they can kind of see that it balances out. And now we're hearing too, a lot of them have picked up on how expensive medical um costs are here. So if you're offering that as a benefit, a lot of them are looking for that as well, in addition to the wage and the housing costs.
SPEAKER_01:I was waiting for Keith to say something. All right. Um what's the hardest part about a club starting or restarting an H2B visa program? Like, because I I I would assume a lot of clubs have bad first experiences, or they try and you know they've worked with just you know people who are just off or just don't know how to do it well themselves, so they just get like a bad, a bad taste in their mouth. If, or maybe it's a club just like overwhelmed. What are what are steps that a club could take to like get the ball rolling?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, so two things. So one is the timelines are incredibly important. And if you start too late, it just piles up on you, and there's a point that you just can't move forward because there's all these deadlines. So I always say if you're a summer season club, right, like April, May, June start date, we always start work in mid-September, which is very soon. Um, if you are a winter season club, like South Florida, Southern Arizona, Narraski Mountain, Ana Ski Mountain, um, we start those in mid-March. So mid-September for summer, mid-March for winter. Second thing is when you're starting the program, one of the hardest parts for a new organization is you have to take leaps of faith while you're starting the program. And so meaning that if we're starting the process in mid-September for an April or May start date, and a club is just starting out, unless they already have staff housing, they're not gonna know where people are gonna live. They might not know how much housing is gonna cost, they're not gonna have all the answers, right? And and one of the things I always say is the process kind of just builds upon itself, like layer by layer. And so you don't need all the answers when you start. But taking that leap of faith that we know we're gonna do the program and we're gonna take steps together, but we might not know all the answers right now, including who the workers are, that is, I think, just it it goes against like common sense a little bit, and it's hard to wrap your head around the first year.
SPEAKER_03:I would say too, they need to have a learning mindset. The process is so nuanced, and if clubs or the people working on the H2B petitions from the club are hungry for information and you know, keeping up on the webinars that Pavy and Law offers or what's going on with H2Bs, I think they're more likely to grasp the bigger concepts of the program because they're kind of immersing themselves in that that world and really rather than just you know rapid firing some answers over to their attorney, they're really trying to understand the why behind why we're asking these things, which can help them.
SPEAKER_02:That's where seasonal connect is so helpful. I I I I I wish that we could force clubs to sign up like right at the start, because getting a a lay for the land is so helpful, and that's where that that that platform can really give clubs that leg up as they're trying to learn modeling.
SPEAKER_01:What are like then questions managers should be then asking themselves about seasonal staffing? Because you know, you you you're kind of touching on it. They're like, what are like the important questions they should be asking themselves about themselves, their staffing, their program, their club?
SPEAKER_02:So I always start with where are you hurting the most? Um I'm a huge advocate of starting small and not just like rushing into the program. So where are you hurting most? What are the roles that you're hurting most with? Um they're usually the same positions. Um it's usually grounds, food and beverage, um, you know, front desk has been a big one this year. Um and then it's what do you want? Like forget about everything you know or any preconceived notions. Like, what do you what do you want? What would allow you to give your members and their guests the the experience that you want to be giving them and that they that they that they want? And then let's talk about it. And and um, you know, it goes into when do you want the workers with you? You know, do you have people they already want? Do you have partners and in in in the opposite season in terms of other clubs, in terms of other organizations? But to me, it always goes back to you know, where are you struggling? What do you want? And then obviously budget always comes into mind or comes into play pretty soon thereafter.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You you kind of you know uh started talking about it, you know, uh opposite season partner clubs. What makes a good opposite season partner club?
SPEAKER_03:I'll take that one because it's the core of what Seasonal Connect does. Um so when when clubs are looking for an opposite season recruiting partner, um, there's a few things they should look for. The first, which I think is the most obvious and usually what people are focusing on, is that their dates lineup. So, you know, if I work at a club um in New England from April 1st, I have workers from April 1st to October 31st. Ideally, I'm finding, you know, a ski mountain that has that starts um November 1st and ends March 31st. Now that's hard to find. It's hard to find people that line up exactly with you. Um, but that's what everyone's looking for. From there, though, I think there's a few other things. Um, the first is being communicative, so making sure your partner's willing to chat with you about how things are going and what they need. Um, and also listening to what your club needs as well is important. Um, I also think for these partnerships, it's talking about the the culture and making sure that the right workers for your club um are working at your partner club. So it may it your dates might line up, but if they're just warm bodies that aren't gonna fit nicely into your club, it's it's not gonna work long term. If you have similar philosophies and are looking for, you know, similar um calipers of workers and and have a good cohesive team, I think that goes a long way and could really create this long-standing relationship between your club and your your partner club.
SPEAKER_01:How do you how do clubs then how do you avoid competing with like your friends' clubs for the same workers?
SPEAKER_03:That's a good question. I mean, one thing we always say is not to put all of your eggs in one basket. And that that's kind of twofold. Sometimes when we're saying that, we're saying don't just work with a recruiter, don't just work with seasonal connect, don't just go out on your own. It is like a a puzzle. I think there's different ways to recruit. Um, but in terms of your partners, it's also don't just partner with one or two clubs and assume that their needs are gonna be the same every year because people's dates change, they might um decrease the number of HTB workers that they they need in the future, and so really just spreading that net wide and partnering with a myriad of clubs can can help diversify that staffing. And then I think you're not taking uh your partner club's entire staff, you know. Maybe you're you're able to take three servers and they might have ten working there, and so then your your friends at other clubs could maybe have the other seven servers that that work there.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and the reality is you're totally competing against your friends, right? Like that's that's the reality. Because the the workers have free will, and so you can't take that away from them and you can't force where they go. Um, and so understanding that in some ways it is a free-for-all. You have to be your own advocate, you have to go get the workers. And so, um, because your friend is totally trying to come in, and and whether or not they know you're also trying to get the same workers, they're they're all everyone's trying to do it. So one of the other mistakes I make that I see made a lot in the club world is um I'm gonna start that over, Denny. One of the one of the big mistakes that I see in the club world is uh that there are certain clubs that I think are just very well known. And they're kind of like these uh goal, like a lot of organizations and clubs have these goals of getting to know them and recruit with them. And what I watch is that we have the same we see the same clubs going after the same few organizations to recruit with. And if they spread out their net a little bit uh a little bit wider and they talk to some other organizations and got to know some new people, they would be in a such such a better place because even if a club files for hundreds of people, if if everyone's trying to get the same hundred people, that the people go pretty quickly. So you are recruiting. As your friends, having a wide network is incredibly important. And you got to sell yourself because there's no way to just go to one club and say, hey, Carly, I want all your workers. It just doesn't work that way.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and be a good partner, right? I think if you're a good partner club to your opposite seasoned recruiting partner, then the per the club that you are working with can really advocate for you. And of course the workers have free will, as Teese mentioned, but um I think a lot of the workers listen to what their club says about other clubs. And so your partner can really speak to the culture at your club or how responsive you are or how wonderful it is to work there. So I think just being a good good employer and good partner in general can also go a long way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Which is also, you know, I'm always an advocate for clubs posting on social media and doing all, you know, having good cultures and promoting it and talking about it. So I'm sure that just helps. Um and I'm sure there's probably some clubs where you have people fighting to work there, and I'm sure you have clubs that people are fighting to leave and they can't get people. I'm sure you have the whole gambit.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, absolutely. It goes back to that same focus, right? Like the ones who are taking that time to post on social media are probably really great places to work.
SPEAKER_01:If if a club had had a choose, you know, really investing in one area for retention, housing culture, wages, career path, you know, what do you think has the highest ROI? Wages.
SPEAKER_03:Wages up there, and then very closely behind, I would say, culture. I think a lot of what we hear is employers weren't treating them well, the club, you know, the club didn't care about them. Um, and then they leave and they're more than likely not gonna come back. And not only that, but this is a network that is huge on word of mouth. And so if you don't treat workers well, they're gonna tell their friends, they're gonna tell their family, and that spreads like wildfire. So I think team culture and just treatment of workers is is closely behind wages.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't think you're gonna have the conversation about culture though, if the wages doesn't have some level of fairness and equity to it. But I agree with what Carly said. Wages to me is kind of a it goes without saying. You have to pay people competitively in your market. It doesn't mean that you have to pay the most in the industry, but you have to pay people fairly in your market. But then it immediately goes to culture. Because I'm saying this as an immigration lawyer. Right now it's really hard for people to go home. And it's very hard, I shouldn't say that, it's actually very easy to go home. It's very hard to come back. And so to get back into the United States. And so a lot of the workers are choosing to stay right now, and if they're not feeling like you're watching out for them and you're gonna take care of k take care of them, and frankly, just most of all feel valued, the whole thing falls apart. I don't care how much you're paying people. It uh you gotta treat people well.
SPEAKER_01:Do you ever just like separate yourself from some clubs or some clients or some does it can it or has it gotten to a point where you just the culture was just bad, you couldn't like literally could not get people to go and go there and work?
SPEAKER_02:So we do. We actually we we do. I don't talk about it a lot. We we we do um we do fire clients pretty regularly at this point. Um what I will we do it for we don't we I can think of maybe one or two situations where we have fired a client because of the way that they treat workers. Generally, I try I think I'm I'm a pretty good judge of that at the outset in terms of of people being nice people, and that's always one of my prerequisites. I I don't want to work with jerks. Um I want to work with nice, nice and smart people is who we hire and who we want to work with. Um where we've where we let go of clients is when they're not treating my team well. And I think that's usually a good barometer anyway, of just internal culture. I think there's usually some habits that you see, but um we try to I I would say the better answer is probably we really try to flush that out at the outset because I don't I think we uh I don't think any of us want to work with jerks, and I think that we want to work with organizations that really do view people as human beings.
SPEAKER_01:Are there any like red flags that you see or that are kind of like what are your like things you're like, eh, it's probably not gonna be a good fit.
SPEAKER_02:Do you have any, Carly, while I try to think of some answers?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I was gonna say on on my end, I think it's people that work at the club, the HR folks that are, you know, gonna be in charge of working with the the immigration law firm on HGBs, talking about workers like their cattle or objects, saying, you know, saying things like, um, I need I need 30 of them, or you know, like I think they I don't know how to phrase it better, but we hear we hear people talk about them like they're not human beings, and to me that is a huge red flag. That shows me that you want a warm body, you don't care who it is, and you're not gonna be taking very good care of them. So for me, that's I think what stands out the most.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I feel like so much of my vetting is how people talk, how people communicate, responsiveness right from the start is big to me. But I'm also watching a lot of how serious are people about learning and about ongoing education and then as kind of working towards the compliance piece. Because it it just it all goes together towards having a good program. Like if if you're not gonna learn and care about the rules, you're also not setting your program up to be successful in any way, including having a good experience for the workers. So um, but yeah, I think uh Carl, I think you made some great points. But I think we're I think we're we're both very attuned at the outset to what's gonna make a really good partnership and a good relationship from a client side.
SPEAKER_01:This stuff goes like deep.
SPEAKER_03:It does. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, and um just to add to what Keith said too, I think it's knowing that no matter how long you do this process, you have to be invested year after year to continue to work to improve it, to continue to get feedback and to evolve and change as the needs of the workers change and as the environment that you're you're operating in changes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What what do you think, or what do you wish maybe m GMs or boards understood before they started the the the process of it?
SPEAKER_02:We can't control everything. And we are operating in a very um really tough immigration world right now that that things are constantly shifting. So like I know at this year's event we talked a lot about at our staffing summit this year, we talked about um you know, just understanding that things shift and and that you need to just keep learning and and and participating. Um also there are certain times in the program where you do have to pivot or at least like have conversations and see if you do need to pivot. Um I always think of the the program as a game of shoots and ladders, and sometimes you do need to take a step backwards to take the the many steps forward after that. And you know, it's not just you fill out a forum and you get workers tomorrow. Like I I think GMs and boards miss out on that a lot, and I shouldn't say a lot. I think clubs are usually pretty good, so the boards, right? Like when you have like retired lawyers, it's it's sometimes they have opinions on how things should work. But it it really process.
SPEAKER_01:We're also in a very like you know, you can get things quick culture. Yes, it doesn't matter how old you are, young or old, you know, we have that's like, oh, can't get it in like a day or two, it's gonna take weeks? Yeah, weeks? Like, you know, so I think for them to people have to wait for like a weeks or like a month, like what?
SPEAKER_02:Totally, totally. Yeah, there's no instant gratification here. Um but the other thing, I'll say from a GM standpoint, and most most private club GMs are fantastic at this, but the GM needs to know what's going on, but they should not be the one doing this process. They need to trust their HR person, their controller. Uh when the GM is involved, I just I always cringe, not because I mean GMs are fantastic, but they have so many other things that they should be doing versus a process that's pretty work-intensive on an ongoing basis for six months of the year.
SPEAKER_01:GM stay out.
SPEAKER_02:GM stay out. Be part of the planning and then step out.
SPEAKER_01:And and and I'm sure there must be some amazing rewarding aspects to all of this, too. You know, between helping clubs solve the problem and then also, you know, when you have like that really great connection of people, you know, staff and workers, you really create that like bond and that experience that's just great for everybody. It's like, uh, like the the trifecta, you know, it's like everybody wins and everyone's happy. And Power Rangers unite, like everyone puts their fists in.
SPEAKER_03:It's so true though, because the club, then the club has what they need to operate smoothly. They're giving a great experience, the members are happy. And then for the workers, I mean, these clubs are changing their lives. A lot of these workers are coming here and sending every dime they make home. And it's, you know, this is a real um, a really important situation for them to be in. And they're they're sacrificing a lot to come to the US and do these jobs. And so I think when a club treats them well and does a good job of the program, they're changing the lives of these people that are here um on the HTB visa.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and it's changing the lives of the people on staff, right? All these all the people who are already there get to meet all these incredible people. The workers that come are generally some of the best and hardworking people they have. And all of a sudden, even during very busy seasons for the seasonal clubs, people get to go home at night and see their families, and they're not working a trillion hours. Um, except for the workaholics who work a trillion hours no matter what. But everyone gets to everyone gets some help and it creates stability, it creates reliability in in service and in on a daily basis with staffing. And I don't know, it's it's win-win-win.
SPEAKER_01:Once somebody is at a club, do they have the ability and option to like keep could you can they keep going back? Can people keep re-requesting the same ones?
SPEAKER_02:And theoretically, there are some barriers more and more for everybody because there's numerical caps and limits, but that's where strategy comes into play, and that's where this program is definitely the HTB program, especially, is it's designed for that. It's just that it takes some strategy and sometimes requires some flexibility, or maybe taking a year away from that person hoping to bring them back to the self-support season.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Anything uh you guys wanted to add or bring up.
SPEAKER_03:That's a good question. Uh no, I think for me it's really just I can't stress enough the importance of these recruiting relationships with clubs that have the opposite busy season. I think sometimes when people are new to this, they think it's like any old recruiting where they're just gonna post a job and get workers and it's you're gonna fail, in my opinion, if you do that. Um it's important to form these relationships and to network and to find clubs that are that have a similar mindset and and treat their workers, you know, well, so that you're creating you're finding them in the workers in larger numbers, but you're also providing, like you said, that um ability for them to come back and go back and forth and have some stability as a worker as well. And so I think um you're saving yourself time in the future essentially by forming those partnerships early on and continuing to grow them.
SPEAKER_02:I'll say one thing. From my perspective, there's this perception sometimes that HTBs are really hard or the HTB process is really hard. And I'm not minimizing that sentiment. It is a lot of work, it's it can cost a decent amount of money. But what we've been doing over the last few years, and Carly alluded to this, and you used some some really interesting statistics, Carly, what when you were talking today. If when we're watching clients use data and information and kind of take things as they come and then look reflecting back on that data and information, it's allowing organizations to have so much more predictability and success in the program. And so we've really been trying to share as much as we can with our clients around statistics and information and data. And I have never seen clients be so happy and so and feel like this program is going so well, even though demand for HTVs is at an all-time high. So it's this weird paradox where there's more organizations applying than ever before. But if you're understanding what's happening on an ongoing basis and using that data and information, there's real opportunities to make this a success a successful program for someone's club.
SPEAKER_01:It's definitely not a set it in and forget it, it's gonna take work.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but but it's it doesn't have to be too much. It just as long as they're participating on an ongoing basis, it's that. It's not like you have to sit down with a buck and every night it's multiple hours of homework.
SPEAKER_03:But it's the same sentiment with recruiting. Like they can't just post a job and walk away. I think because there's so much competition for these workers, it really it's an ongoing process they need to invest in and continue investing in if they want to be successful.
SPEAKER_01:That was that was all of my my my my goodies. Um anything else?
SPEAKER_02:I assume this is gonna be the best webinar ever, in your opinion?
SPEAKER_03:Podcast, but yes.
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, um, I did a lot of things.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Can we call this the ocho?
SPEAKER_03:The ocho. The H2B Ocho.
SPEAKER_01:The Ocho. Sounds like a bad like line dance at like the honky chunk or something. The olcho. What's that? That's the olcho.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, it really does.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man. As much as I I might make it the ocho, that'd be really funny.
SPEAKER_03:That'd be hilarious.
SPEAKER_01:That's really good. Uh so okay, so I'm I'm just gonna wrap it up, but don't leave. Uh thank you guys so much for coming on. Thank you for sharing about each. I just love learning about like new stuff too, and you answer some of my questions, and glad you're able to come on and share with the other Club World space as well.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for having us. Thanks so much, Denny.
SPEAKER_01:Hope you all enjoyed that episode. I know I did. Carly and Keith, thank you for coming on and sharing and giving back to the community. That's this episode. I'm your host, Denny Corby. Until next time, catch y'all on the flippity flip.
