Private Club Radio Show
Welcome to the Private Club Radio Show, the industry's weekly source for education, news, trends, and other current developments in the world of private clubs.
Hosted by the talented entertainer and industry expert, Denny Corby,
the podcast offers a unique perspective on the private club industry, featuring expert guests, product spotlights, predictions, and more.
Whether you're involved in a golf club management, yacht clubs, athletic clubs, or business clubs, the Private Club Radio Show is the essential podcast for
anyone seeking valuable insights and information on the latest trends and developments in the private club industry.
Private Club Radio Show
466: Keeping an Eye on Certifications w/ Brian Watkins CMAA
So you want those letters after your name—CCM, CCE,
maybe even MCM—but you’re not sure where to start, how long it takes,
or if it’s even worth it?
This episode answers all your certification questions.
This week on The Private Club Radio Show, we sit down with
Brian Watkins, Director of Certification & Education at the
Club Management Association of America (CMAA).
If you’ve ever registered for a BMI, counted your CECs, or prepped for the CCM exam, you’ve already felt Brian’s impact.
In this episode, Brian gives us a behind-the-scenes look at:
*What it really takes to earn your Certified Club Manager (CCM)
*How to track and use your Continuing Education Credits (CECs)
*The step-by-step journey to Honor Society, Certified Chief Executive (CCE), and the elite Master Club Manager (MCM) designation
*What role BMI programs play in the process—and how to get the most out of them
*Why CMAA’s certification path is evolving to support the next generation of club professionals
*Common pitfalls, myths, and game-changing tips for every manager on the path to professional growth
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And Brian's journey is nothing but typical. In this episode, we learn a little bit more about Brian and his background, what got him to hear with us at the CMFO, but we dive into what's going on. We dive into not just what are and what is CCMs and CECs and all of those, but also what it really takes to earn your CCM and what that really means. Now you didn't start off in clubs or hospitality. You were you were a teacher, right?
SPEAKER_01:I was a teacher. That's correct. So I taught for five years. I taught high school ninth graders, uh club, uh, excuse me, I've said club management. Um I taught uh government to ninth graders and then early world history to 11th graders. And so I got my master's degree in um 97 and the first, excuse me, 98. And the first summer break, the first day of summer break, following my master's degree, I looked in the Washington Post. And back then, excuse me, all of the newspapers had a thick employment section on Sunday. Washington Post mega job section was, you know, about two inches thick. And I I said to myself, well, what what is in here or what's gonna be in here that says Masters of Education? Opened it up, highlighted every job that said masters of education, and what I found was most of those jobs were in associations. At that time, I had no clue what an association was, other than the fact that I was, you know, national, a part of the National Education Association, or the one that was in my state at the time. So I applied to 12, got interviews at six, and I got offered a job at the I Bank Association of America, which their members were I Bank technicians where they would take corneals and cadavers, uh, corneas and eye tissue off of cadavers. So my job.
SPEAKER_00:Oh I remember you telling me that, and it still just gave me like the same chill. Something about eyeballs. Oh man.
SPEAKER_01:Listen, and they and they and they needed professional development course, and they had a certification program. And I got in there, and within like, I think Denny, within the first three months, I realized I might be in over my head here. Because I I she hired me and I had no experience. None. And so I was just, you know, keeping it afloat. And I I said, okay, well, I I remember telling the executive director, I'm I'm I'm way in over my head here. I'm gonna resign. And she said, okay. She said, well, why don't you go ahead and look for another job and you can stay here? And I was like, okay, great.
SPEAKER_00:So she's like, are you sure? Really? Like that's such a cool moment. And I feel like that sort of is like a segue into hospitality, also, in like a very strange way. Like I feel like that's a very hospitable thing to do. Like not many people, companies, or organizations would do that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I definitely felt that, and that was one of the things about associations, very laid back, um, very uh understanding. And so, you know, I took that opportunity to look for some other positions, and I found a more entry-level position at the American Speech Language and Hearing Association, which is a large association here in Maryland. Um, membership of, at that time it was 110,000, and now I think it's probably closer to one thirty. And I was at accreditation coordinator, and I was on the ground doing site visits with SLPs and audiologists and going to colleges, and it was a great experience. I learned a lot about associations there.
SPEAKER_00:It's so weird. You went from from uh from the vision in the eyes to site visits.
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, I've I've told this story many times, and you're the only one who's put that together.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's today's episode. That's today's episode.
SPEAKER_01:Have a good day. God bless. Good night.
SPEAKER_00:Mic drop, I'm out. Oh well, no. Uh that is that is so look like the when you you told me that too, and then I remember the first thing it clicked was it was interesting. You just you you stuck to like the body almost. Like you went from the eyes to the ears, no, you know, you got you got all the you know all the senses working.
SPEAKER_01:Very good connection. You know, I never thought about that until you just said something. That was a very connection. Yeah. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. So, you know, because not everybody falls in love with certifications and associations and continuing ed. You know, what grabbed you about it? And then how did you get into, you know, how'd you find your way into CMAA?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's a different way of educating. It's a different way of educating, it's a different demographic, right? So you go from educating youngsters to now um educating uh young adults and adults, and really people who have a passion for what they do, helping them down the path with that passion. And that's that's what I found interesting. Um being a part of association, you see the members and how passionate they are about uh their careers, and just wanting to help them grow in that career and grow professionally in that career, and that requires education. And so being able to create education programs or being able to help them down the path of certification, I just found that interesting. It's something that um, you know, it's a thing that we need in our society, right? We we don't always think about the borrower is licensed or certified. Our mechanics need to be licensed and certified. Those people who come in our homes doing HVAC, those people who are licensed and certified. And so really is a service, I guess, to our society to help make sure those individuals have the education that they need, the knowledge and skills to do their jobs in a way that provides a service to everyone else.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I'm sure it's it's when you work with, you know, and not just the club managers, but when you were working with the different, you know, organizations and different people, it's I I would assume it's it's a different sort of education and a different sort of buy-in that you get as compared to when meaning, you know, when people want to learn and they want to be there for, you know, and they want to continue versus just you know having to be there. Or, you know, I'm not saying that there's a difference between like kids and adults and you know, young adults in school, but I think there's probably a difference when like people are like the the buy-in is there and they're excited and they're in the industry and they're excited for what's coming and they want to learn as much as they can and just be like a sponge.
SPEAKER_01:That's you know what I compare it to, I go back to the kids, right? So those are who are in ninth grade, their first year of high school, they don't necessarily have the buy-in, right? I mean, they know they have to take classes, they don't even know or think about what required what classes are required for graduation. They just know I'm here, mom and dad told me I have to be here. There are some who are directly um excited about their education and learning, but then there are so many who at high school level just like, I'm here, I want to graduate. You get those 11th graders who are now I've bought in because I gotta think about college, right? So now I'm really focused on getting the education, getting the lecture and the information from the teacher. And so that's the buy-in. I equate that to where we are now with certification, is that our members have gotten to this point where, okay, this is going to be my career. So now let me take it to a next to the next step. And whether that means getting all the professional development so that I can serve my members better, or making sure I get a certification so I can have advancement, mobility, um, I can tell someone that I have the knowledge and skills, whether it's the um recruiters or someone who has a job to offer me. That's the buy-in. And so once they have that, it's very easy to have their attention and provide the education for them to for them to achieve. It's really, it's really um from a from a from a education perspective and and being in front of our members, it's very interesting to see them and listen to our speakers, get the content, and then on the back end, like Friday or Monday following, hear them, oh my gosh, that was a great program. Everyone was just was so wonderful. The message they delivered, the information I got, the networking, it really makes it worthwhile that that, okay, I'm doing something right here, trying to educate them in this uh in this uh industry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and you've you've probably found that people take in and learn differently too. So you know, you've probably been to some VMIs and some trainings, and you're like, man, you know, there was like a table or a certain person, you're like, they did not enjoy it at all. And they're like, they're like the first ones in your inbox, like that was the best event ever. And you're like, can you have told your face or something?
SPEAKER_01:Like, right, right, right, right, right. As my mom, my mom used to say, mind your face, right? Mind your face. Your face should not, your face shouldn't always say what you think or how you feel. Um, but when you do feel that excitement, feel free to let me know. Hey, I like it. You know, you don't have to wait until I see you at conference or I see you a year later, or I see you at another program. Man, that that program you had in Atlanta, that was great. Really? Because I thought you hated it. You know what I was like? I didn't get that from you, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. You're right.
SPEAKER_00:So uh remind the viewers, what exactly do you do uh at and for the CMAA?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so my primary role is director of certification. That's my title, certification education. Primarily, I'm responsible for making sure our members get the certification, go down the certification path from beginning to end. And in that part of that is going to our BMI programs, our BMI programs that we have, which are required, four of them, go into those programs along with my other colleagues in the education department, making sure that um they meet the eligibility requirements and then get to the point of exam and helping them, not necessarily helping through the exam, but helping them prepare for the exam. So from beginning to end, uh, me and my colleague, Sonia Prepinabar, we're responsible for helping them with the certification process. That's that's our role. Aside from that, BMI is our business management institute. I'm responsible for the planning, coordination of those programs as well. So it's kind of a two-fold there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Is there is there is there anything that you do that people may not realize that you actually do, or maybe something that falls under your jurisdiction?
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00:Um, more more so just like thinking like are other things that you do for the association, maybe for the BMIs, for the you know, for everything that maybe that you you have your hands in or that you're involved in that maybe you know a normal club manager or a normal attendee might go, Oh, I didn't realize that's under his veil.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, the BMIs. I don't think that our members realize that I'm responsible for the coordination of those a lot because my title is director of certification, but I don't think CCM. But yeah, um, I'm responsible for the coordination of the BMIs. We have five programs, and at I think four of the programs, we have an on-site coordinator. That on-site coordinator is she or he are the ones that pretty much work with the speakers to create the schedule ahead of time. But I have to work with them to make sure they have the dates, they have whatever presentations that they need, they have our online platform set up and have access to that to be able to upload documents to that. I do the correspondence between us and our members as they prepare to go to the programs, the correspondence for like confirmation when they register for the programs, the confirmation letter they receive. Um, if there are any incidents or issues that happen on site, I'm responsible for, um, as well as Jason Coney's fellow who is our chief learning officer. Um, there are a lot of things with the BMIs that I don't think our members realize that I have uh hands on. But um that's a good thing because they they're they're just on for the ride, Danny. They're just on for the ride.
SPEAKER_00:And it's a good thing. And sometimes if if they know you're involved with something, they're gonna want to talk to you about stuff. And it's like, no, there's other people for that. Like you need to tell me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. You can talk to someone else, talk to you know, the coordinator in Atlanta, or talk to someone in LA, but it doesn't have to always come to me. But it it does, and and it and it goes to my teammates as well. There's six of us in the department, and and they get emails and phone calls or whatever about things that happen at programs, and that gets passed on to me, and so I'm able to usually figure out a solution for some of those issues. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Now let's get into some certification talk. You know, what you know, we're let's talk about the CCM. What's uh what does all of that entail? What goes into getting, becoming, and going through the CCM process?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I won't get into the weeds of it, but I will say we have five eligibility requirements. One of those is, as I mentioned, our four BMIs, uh attending World Conference, there's a professional membership requirement, and then there's some other programs that they have to attend. And once they've met all those, there's a require there's a credit requirement, once they've met all those requirements, then they're eligible to sit for the exam. And so what we tell most of our members is it it should take you about four to five years to complete the process. There are some of our members who want to be on a fast track and they think, oh, I'm gonna get through all the programs in two years or three years, and then I'm gonna sit for the exam really quickly. It doesn't typically work like that. The way our um, I would say the the creator of the BMI program and the certification program, um, they want to make sure that everyone goes through all of those programs so that they can get that that knowledge and skills. It's not just about you know rushing to get the designation. And so it's about the immersion of it all. It's the process. It's the process, right? Um but hopefully they go through the process. They go through our BMIs. The required BMIs would be club management, which is a let's say club, private club industry one-on-one program in Atlanta. There's leadership principles, which um is in uh in LA at the Jonathan Club, hosted by the Jonathan Club. Uh GMCO, which is on the campus of Michigan State University. And then those three are required, and then they have an elector. So it's either food and beverage at University of Houston, sports and recreation in Scottsdale, or BMI Golf in Jupiter, Florida at Adam's Cove Club. And um once they complete those and some other requirements, then they're eligible to sit for the exam. It's um it's an experience and education-driven uh eligibility process. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And in the test, is it uh, I believe you have to get at least a 70 in all of the aspects, in all of the competencies, in all of the different sections. So in even if it's, I believe, uh, and correct me if I'm wrong, you know, I probably know enough to be dangerous, but you know, um, if there's, you know, there's golf, there's pool, there's all those elements. And even if you don't have those at your particular facility, whatever, you still have to be encompassing and know all of the different practices, so to speak.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's correct. There, there are currently our members are being tested on 10 competencies. They are educated on 11, which information technology is now 11, but we're not testing on that now. We're in the process of uh rewriting our contemporary called management book, but they're tested on 10. And you have to pass 70% overall, and at least, and this is where you are going, at least 50% in each competency. So if you get a 48 or 49 in, let's say accounting, and you got a 71 overall, you have to sit for the entire exam all over again. And now we yeah, and and and Denny, I'm gonna tell you, that's a tough conversation to have to tell someone, hey, you got uh 72, but you got a 48 in facilities. That's a tough conversation. But it happens, it happens.
SPEAKER_00:Um I've I've I've chatted to a few of those people.
SPEAKER_01:Um but but the exam is fair. And and if we get that close, if you have a 49 uh in one of the competencies, or let's say you have a 68, we will look at the exam. We'll we'll we do it automatically. Anyone who's that close will take a look at the exam to see if maybe one of the or a few of the questions scored or or functioned improperly, and and we will let you know. And we will give you those credits if that or those points, excuse me, if that was the case. We've got to the point now where we're pretty good with where the exam is, and so we haven't had anything technology-wise that could be an issue. That's good. So if it scores that tightly, it's it's true. It's gonna be termed, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's your own damn fault. No, right.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I say. You know, uh no, I don't say that. I don't. There's no way I can say that. I don't say that. No, no.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and and and CCM would be considered like the bachelor's degree, right? That is correct.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that is correct. So we have the CCE, I mean excuse me, CCM, which is our bachelor's degree, as you said. We have another another designation right after that. That's the Honor Society. Honor Society means you have earned 400 credits post-CCM. So from the time you get your CCM, let's just say your clock or your um your credits will go to zero. So once you get the 400 and you attend either tactical or strategic leadership, you will become uh an honor society member. Then we have the the chief, excuse me, certified chief executive. Now that's the master's level designation that has both a credit requirement as well as you have to attend both tactical and strategic leadership. And you must be in an executive, GM, COO level for at least five years. So it wants you to also have some experience to go on to that education as well. Uh and then the last one is the Master Club Manager, which is a doctorate level type program. You come up with a topic, you um work with the panel and the head of that committee, you kind of flesh out everything, and um they will edit your paper as you are going along, and then eventually, hopefully, that will be defended at conference and it will be approved, and you will become a master club management. We only have I think the number's 25 master club managers in total.
SPEAKER_00:The holy grail.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's it. That's it. That's it. What what kind of person actually chases that level?
SPEAKER_01:I I think it's someone who is a umone who has an extreme level of dedication and commitment to the industry. Someone who really is focused um on their professional development, someone who's very serious about their professional development, someone who also wants to enhance the industry because all of those manuscripts are always kept and we're and they're posted on our website. So anyone could take a look at them and see what what uh the topic was, and hopefully they've done their due diligence and their studying and their research to provide a really nice manuscript for everyone in the industry to go back and look at and read. So it's really someone who is at a different level of where they want to be educationally. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You have those people, then you have the ones who are like, eh, I'm too busy, I don't have time for this. You know, just the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, but then and uh a lot of our members say that, and and they are busy, they are busy, but when you get to that point, I think in your career, you're you're delegating a lot of what you do, right? And so not to diminish their job their jobs or their daily tasks, but you do have a little more time personally and professionally to dig into something like that. And and and we even express that, you know, don't don't, even though we only have 25, take a look at it, consider it. Once you get that CCE, consider the MCM because it really may be something that it may not be what you think it is. It may not be the level of commitment of your time that that you think it is.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm sure people even for you for their CCM and their CCEs, you know, I'm sure you still get some of those people who say, Oh, I'm too busy, I don't have time for that. What do you what do you even say to those people?
SPEAKER_01:I I tell them to, it's a listen, certification is not for everyone. I I was just having this conversation with uh last week. It's not for everyone. It's not for everyone. You know, it and I mentioned your auto mechanic, right? Your auto mechanic, not every auto mechanic is certified, ASC certified. Um, but do we want to have someone certified who's working on my car? Uh yeah. I mean, it it it it tends to be that that person is more knowledgeable about everything in the automotive industry in terms of repairs. Do you have to be in order to be a mechanic? No. Do you have to be certified to be great in hospitality? No, you do not. But when you think about advancement, when you think about wanting to get the best education in terms of the industry, you're gonna get that. But also um the mobility. So many of our clubs, when they're looking to hire, whether it's a clubhouse manager or AGM, definitely at the GM level. They look in it for CCN preferred. And so it's not required, but it's preferred. And it's telling them that you have the knowledge and skills available to help take their club to another level. And so I would say, you know, it's it's a part of a process. It's not something that you're gonna run through quickly, but be a part of that process. Take the time to invest in yourself. If you're not, and if the club is willing to invest in you, you definitely, if they're gonna invest the financial um backing, you definitely should take advantage of that and and start the process of going towards your CCM. It's not, like I said, you know, it's not gonna be something that's gonna happen tomorrow, but it's gradual. It's gradual. So there's gonna be time. You can make time for it, hopefully.
SPEAKER_00:And for the most part, you're going to the meetings anyway. You're you're doing, you're showing up, you're doing most of the work, right? The hardest part is showing up, and you're showing up most of the time to a CCM event or C CMAA events. Like you're getting credit, you're doing just do the little extra work. Like just do the extra 10%. Like that's really all it is. Like showing up, just doing that. Are there any I don't know, like myths or misunderstandings that maybe people have about the certain like any of the certification processes?
SPEAKER_01:I I think uh some of the myths that we used to run into was because there was a time maybe years ago, maybe I don't know, maybe 13 years ago, where if you had if you had a bachelor's degree, you didn't have to take a certain number of programs, or you could not take the Atlanta program or not take the LA program. That doesn't exist anymore. We're at the point where the board wants everyone to take all of the programs so they can be uh well-rounded, right? Yeah. Um, I I don't know that there are any myths per se. It's just things that are focused on our eligibility requirements. There's some hearsay and speculation, things, just you know, word of mouth. People playing phone and they're getting the wrong information. So what we really are trying to do, Denny, is push them towards the website, but you know, not everyone wants to read, not everyone wants to take the time to read. Or we'll do the certification presentation. I've done several at the chapter level, I've done several at the BMIs. We even have a YouTube video where I've done that presentation, and we just ask them to, if they have any questions, like you're saying, that there's some misinformation out there, just reach out to us and we'll answer that, whether it's a phone call or or an email. We can, you know, provide the information you need so that there are no you know gaps in in terms of uh information. Um that's I I know our our communication department does a great job at putting out a lot of information. And as you know, um some people have the opportunity. I will say I'll say it this way. Some people have the opportunity to read it, some people don't have the opportunity to read it, but they need to take that opportunity and read it because there may be some stuff that they're just missing, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Just per your last email. No, I'm kidding. Uh it's it's gonna be really cool seeing so many people go through and start and complete the journey. You know, what what do you think changes in people from day one to when they finally get those letters after their name?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think it's in that process. It's the it's their development in that process. And it's not just the education, it's the relationships that they build when they go to the programs or when they go to World Conference. It's the relationships they build, it's their own development, right? They start to change as a manager. They um get not just art education, but they learn from other people. And so by the time they get to that point where they're ready to walk across the stage, they're they're um they're far more professional. They're far more experienced in the industry. They've been exposed to a lot of different things, whether it's from our education or from conversation. That they've had with their peers. They've had the opportunity to talk to some of our seasoned managers, right? Some of our maybe their MCM or CCE and learn from them, take get advice from them. And so you can kind of see that, right? You can see those who are middle managers, clubhouse manager, F and B director, and how they evolve into something bigger and better. And it's really, it's it's quite impressive. And and and also when they become more involved in the association, right? They become a volunteer in the association. They start getting involved on national committees. They become more involved at the chapter level, being on some of those committees, or maybe even a chapter board. So it's really impressive to see how much they love CMAA, how much they respect CMAA and all that the association is able to provide them. I mean, I think that's one of the things that, as I, as an association professional, have come here from other associations and seen how much the members love what the association does for them. And that's just willing to get back. They're willing to get back, be a part of it. They are super active and super enthused. But to see that development from the beginning to where they walk across the stage, all of that is in there, and it's it's quite impressive. And those are people that you tend to hold on to. You know their faces, you know their names, you see them at all the events. Those are the ones that are really growing, but they're growing inside the association. And it's it's impressive to see.
SPEAKER_00:It really is. Yeah. I think I remember you telling me that, you know, uh the younger managers, the younger professionals, you know, they're also starting to show up different, a little bit more hungrier, more intentional. What do you do do you think it's it's the shifts in the association in the industry that are kind of helping with that? And maybe, you know, and just kind of like, you know, in terms of the education and how just everyone is showing up, do you think it's forcing them to show up different also?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think it's I think it's partly that. I think that hunger and desire is a willing to is a willingness to be a part of an industry that has a lot to offer them. Um I think they see the private club industry as something that is a place where they can really grow. And so because they see that, they wanna they wanna take uh take it seriously. I don't want to say that in in the past that our managers didn't take it seriously because they did. But it's a different level of commitment, it's a different level of focus that I've seen. You're not just gonna have um, and I don't know the numbers, but you know, over the last several years, we've had the membership just grow like weeds to where now, I guess we're somewhere hovering around that 8,000 number mark where the conference conference is, I think last year's conference was maybe a little above 4,000. You're not gonna you're not gonna have that from people who aren't dedicated, who aren't committed to their professional development. And it's really the younger people who they're driven. I mean, they're they're driven, man. They they want more. They want more. They also feel like, and I think there's a generation that feels like whether I've come out of college with a degree, or whether I've been in the in industry for 20 something or 15 years from the ground, that I'm here. I want more. I see that there's so much more. I see that I could be a GM or maybe an AGM somewhere, and they want that. And they they know they have to have a certain level of commitment and focus in order to get that. And it's and that again is impressive.
SPEAKER_00:And this is me, you know, I'm I'm just I'm just shooting from the hip and just you know, making like assumptions. But, you know, do you think it's maybe also like I don't want to say the vibe is changing, but now it's you know, it's it's changing from that old school mentality of like, oh, you gotta put in your, you know, maybe one day you can be here, you know, my level if you're here for 20 years. Like I feel like like the the it's changed a bit where if you are people like hungry and like intentional, but like if you have that, you don't necessarily have to wait the 20 years to get the coveted position. Like there might be a club, you know, if you put in the work, do the effort, you know, you're around good people, you know, surround yourself with amazing people, like you can get to where you want to be possibly quicker. Um, you don't have to like you know be you know beholden to one single person. Um I don't know. I don't know if that made any sense at all. Maybe you're trying to put hopefully you picked up what I was trying to put put down, but I feel like you know, uh, and I don't know if it doesn't make just be me just from when we're going to a BMI, but just from listening to other people, I also feel like maybe the vibe has changed in those as well, or just different educations where I wouldn't say people would say it was like half vocation, half education, but I feel like now people just, you know, me talking to club managers and people, and you know, when I when I interact, it's they're more locked in and the and the BMIs and the educations, like, yes, it's still fun, you know, there's fun elements and all that, but like I feel like it is like a lot more locked in and people are more dialed in.
SPEAKER_01:I I think you are onto something there. Uh there is, and and again, I'm I'm I'm only 10 years into this position, but there is, I think, uh, a feeling that yes, I can achieve quickly. I can get into certain positions quickly. Because there are a lot of opportunities out there. There are a lot of opportunities out there. There are there's a there there can be a lot of um movement and transition and put between these some of these jobs. And I think the members see that and they want to be a part of that, right? You get a taste of something, whether it's you know, uh a dining room supervisor, you want that next, you want to be an FB manager, you uh you FB manager, you want to be now clubhouse manager or AGM. Like you get that taste for it and you're looking for the next thing. And some of them see that I might be able to get that more, you know, more quickly than I it was in the past. You know, yeah, it's not um it's not the way you have uh a GM or someone like that who's saying, you stick with me for X amount of years, and you'll you you will climb that ladder. No, you could go all over the country, right? You can go wherever you want to go, wherever you'd like to be, and probably achieve the same level of climbing, ascending that ladder as you would probably more efficiently than just staying in one club for 15 years. So there are opportunities all over the country, Danny. We have clubs, you know, what, close to 3,000 clubs, you know, all in within our membership. And so there are opportunities all over, and people are looking for those. And so part of that is what they know is the CCM. If I want to be a part of that, let me jump into that CCM program and get the education. My GM says I need it, right? So every, like if I'm here in uh Alabama, I'm at a club in Alabama and someone got me started on the BMIs, and I'm gonna move to Maryland and get a job there, I'm gonna have conversations with those uh leaders in Maryland and say, hey, I'm a part of CMAA. Are you gonna support this? Yeah, we'll support it. Great. Let me jump in here. And you know, two, three years later, there's an opportunity to be an AGM somewhere. I'm gonna go to Connecticut, I'm gonna have those same conversations. Do you guys support CMAA? Yeah, we do we support CMA. Okay, great. Now that's in my budget, and I can go continue my my education. So yeah, it I I think it does, it is different now. I'm not in the industry, so I really can't speak to that directly, but just from what I feel and what I see, and how many how I see our demographics have changed in the BMIs, how many more women are in BMIs now than they were before. Just last week in Atlanta, there were five African Americans in one program. Danny, 10 years. 10 years, I think the most that I ever seen was two. There were five in one program. And so that's just that's another sign that things are growing. People are out there and people are getting opportunities to get the education, right? Whereas I think before you would hear, oh, you know, my GM's gonna go to conference. I'm not able to go to conference, or my GM's gonna go to two BMIs this year. You know, it's not in the budget for me to go. Not any longer. Not any longer. We these the leaders of clubs, GMs, they're like, hey, let me put my people out there. I want to get them that education because they need it. This is gonna be essential to them doing their job um better. So let me get them out front and and get more education. So it's a lot of things that are happening that really benefit the members that also benefit benefit CMAA. Yeah, that growing is just tremendous.
SPEAKER_00:And there's so many opportunities inside the individual chapters for the uh um for education. Like I was just at the central PA, they did their annual golf fundraiser, and I think they had one like their biggest turnouts and you know, raised the some of the most money they have for you know the education for the people inside the chapter, and that's you know, people can use and take advantage of that. A lot of people don't. And I hear that from a lot of chapters, just they're like, hey, we have like you know, resources here, come and use them. Um, you know, if you don't ask, you don't know.
SPEAKER_01:That's exactly right. We have chat our chapters, our chapters do wonderful things. Education-wise, they do great things. And and some chapters have the resources to do more than others, but so many of the chapters, even the ones who don't necessarily have the resources, they try to provide education to their members as well. They do a lot of good things, a lot of good work. And if they can't get at the national level, that's the only the best other best place, best other place to get education is at the chapter level. We have so many good managing directors who are leading their chapters and trying to really, really not just provide education, but bring new people in, right? If you're at a club, you're not a part of CMA, you don't know anything about CMAA, come to a chapter meeting and you can learn so much more about CMA sometimes, which you may be missing. Someone may have been saying to you, hey Denny, over the last five years, hey Denny, come to a chapter meeting. No, I got work, or no, the club is having this event. And then finally you're able to come and you're like, wow, man, this was great education. Come on in, you know, sign up, become a member, become a member of the chapter, and then yeah, you're part of the education on a more regular basis. But even if you're not a member, come to chapter events. Learn about CMA, learn about what the chapter has to offer. You may not be able to come to national events, but the chapters are always there. And like I said, those managing directors are doing great things. They're really, really, really working hard to some of them. A lot of work. Listen, Denny, some of them competing with national, uh, national office events. They do great stuff. So um, yeah, I think the chapters are a great resource for us absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Um where do you see the CMA CMAA education going in the next five, 10 years? Oh man. Any any I'm sure I'm sure there's gotta be platforms or formats or things you guys are you know excited about.
SPEAKER_01:Well, as I said, the membership is growing, and with a growing membership, um, we have to create new programs. And so, and we have a lot of programs that are content specific, right? So, like we have summits and symposiums for HR professionals, uh communication professionals. We have a membership and marketing summit. Uh, I think down the road, we're looking to do an IT summit or do something with uh AI. There are several things content specific that are like two-day, three-day events that I think the board and Jeff Morgan and Jason Coleman's fellow are really looking at maybe uh growing and moving into a direction where we have the BMIs and the CCN program here, but we also have these other educational offerings here, our wellness summit. We just had the wellness summit, I think that was in July, maybe August, I don't remember. But the wellness summit was in Florida. Those are our wellness professionals, spa, fitness, we're you know, we're we're in that area and that's gonna grow. I think we're already planning for the next one next year. So there are content-specific things that are not necessarily tied in to the certification and to the BMIs that we want to put over here and make it specific for these professionals. And they can get education. They don't necessarily have to always come to a BMI to get that education. They can get something specifically for them. Just HR, just the communication folks, um, our leadership summit, our governance summit, things that are content specific for a couple of days, or maybe if it's just one day, and those look those are gonna grow. And I I see that's where the association is is gonna um continue to grow and develop in that in that type of area. Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and being in the industry, you know, 10 10 years now, is there anything that you've learned or picked up about leadership just from watching and being around, you know, GMs?
SPEAKER_01:I I think the ones that um the ones who are willing to communicate, the ones who are willing to uh lead, and when I say lead, not just lead by example, but be a voice to their to their uh employees, to the people who are working with them every day. Some of our some of our GMs who are uh been in their positions for quite some time and are well respected, they're the ones who have been really good communicators. You can kind of see, it's almost like, you know, what do they say about the in athletics, the coaching tree, right? Yeah. It's the same thing, right? You you see so many GMs or AGMs or people who were in certain positions and they came from this one club, right? You you you know, we got a couple of clubs, like a club in it, there's a club in Atlanta, and I don't want to uh, you know, uh speak it specifically because I don't want to leave someone out, but for example, there's a club in Atlanta, they have their own tree where they have like five or six GMs across the country that came from there. There's a club in Arizona, there's a club in Florida, you know, there's a club up north where these GMs, they're just putting people and giving them the knowledge and skills where they're just putting GMs in places all across the country. And it's really because that GM who is at the heart of that tree just gives them the experience to grow and develop and really um the knowledge and skills that that they need to move on and go somewhere else. And it and it's not a situation where someone will say, Oh, well, you know, I I've given you, uh I've provided you the education, the CMA, I've provided you whatever uh freedom to do everything here. No, no, no, just stay here. Just stay here, you'll be fine, right? No. Go out. You know, go out and be great somewhere else. Take what I gave you and give that to someone else, you know. Go out and serve that membership the way you serve this membership here, or go out and lead that team the way I led you. You know, it it's yeah, it's a wonderful thing. I've seen that, and those those leaders are the ones that are highly respected, their names are always out there, and they've done they've done a great job. And and and you can see it in the people who they've put out uh at other clubs. Yeah, you can definitely see it. It's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's neat. It's uh it it it reminds me a little bit. There's like an episode I have cooking. Some I don't know what's what's going on with it yet, but still cooking. But basically it's around of like the idea of do you really have influence? Meaning like your leadership style. Do you really have influence over other people? Do you genuinely move people? Like, do people actually follow you? Do they actually do what you say? Do they, you know, take what you say to heart and try to be better and do better? And it's like, you know, I think there's like a difference between like leadership and not like leadership and influence, but it's like, are you really, you know, influencing and being a uh pivotal part of people's lives? I don't know. Something working on, but it kind of like that sort of like kind of like touched. I was like, oh, this is like kind of touching on it a little bit there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think I think you're on to something there because and that's very true. Uh how how have you influenced someone? How have you touched someone in a way that says to them, I want to be you. I want to be you, but I want to be better, right? I want to take what you've given me, what you've provided me, and take that to a different level. If not the same, make it even better for the person that I hopefully are able to influence. And not everyone has that, right? Like it, you don't we've seen it. We've seen it where coaches, you know, someone coached for, well, I'll I'll I'll put this out here. Someone who's coached for Bill Belichick, right? And he was great with the Patriots, and Belichick gave them autonomy to run this position or this this group, and then they become head coach. And they're not successful, right? We've seen that happen. So not everyone can do it, but the ones who have really listened, right, the ones who have really taken all that information in and really were able to um uh get the framework, put it all together, they're the ones who are going to be able to really flourish outside of the nest. And I think influence is is really a good a good word to use in that influence. How have how have you been influenced? And what does that what does that look like, right?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I think sometimes people can see influence as a bad word or a negative word, but you know, because because you could be influenced bad. Like you could be, you know, influenced in bad ways and being, you know, bad information, misinformation, disinformation. There's all that, but you know, but you know, there are good ways of influence. Um that I think is is really important. Absolutely. Especially in 2025. I'm trying to put a positive spin on the word influence.
SPEAKER_01:This has been a great conversation. Um, you know, it's been uh not just always CMA focused, it's more not just certification focused, it's been you know, discussion about CMA as well and a little bit about the industry. So I think this has been good. It's been a good discussion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, well, hey, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for sharing about the industry, the certifications, all that stuff. And plus, it's been fun getting to learn a little bit more about Brian Brian Watkins, too.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, David. And listen, thanks for having me. Uh, greatly appreciate it. Um, I've heard so much about your podcast, and uh, you know, I really really invite for you for you to invite me to the bottom.
SPEAKER_00:Hope you all enjoyed that. I know I did. Brian, thank you so much for coming out. Thank you for thank you for all you're doing for the club. Until next time, the fucking club.
