Private Club Radio Show
Welcome to the Private Club Radio Show, the industry's weekly source for education, news, trends, and other current developments in the world of private clubs.
Hosted by the talented entertainer and industry expert, Denny Corby,
the podcast offers a unique perspective on the private club industry, featuring expert guests, product spotlights, predictions, and more.
Whether you're involved in a golf club management, yacht clubs, athletic clubs, or business clubs, the Private Club Radio Show is the essential podcast for
anyone seeking valuable insights and information on the latest trends and developments in the private club industry.
Private Club Radio Show
471: From Engineering To Club Leadership w/ Curtis Garner, CCM
Curtis Garner is running a 27 million dollar renovation at Shoal Creek,
working out of a cottage office while the clubhouse comes down around him,
and still finding ways to keep members happy and staff engaged.
In this episode, Curtis, Assistant GM and Director of Operations at Shoal Creek in Birmingham, walks through his path from mechanical engineering student, to hotel bar manager, to cross country move to Idaho, to coming home to Alabama in a senior leadership role.
We talk about what it is really like to lead a full property renovation while staying visible and calm, why clubs are a better long game than hotels if you want a life outside work, and how smaller teams can actually accelerate your growth if you are willing to wear a lot of hats.
Curtis also shares his work rebuilding the Alabama CMAA chapter and launching student chapters at schools like North Alabama and Auburn, plus his take on why private clubs are a perfect fit for curious, high energy, slightly shiny object brains.
If you are in the middle of a project, questioning your next career move, or trying to rebuild community in your chapter, this one will hit home.
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Four buddy schools, five stuff, school things, five dollars, four thousand, four, six, four, six secrets, four dollars, everything in between five and light, four things, five, just in the feet wet, four somewhere in the middle of the floor in the right place. Five posts in four beef. In today's episode, we are heading to Alabama where bulldogs, bulldozers, and board meetings are all happening on the same property. My guest today is Curtis Gardner, ADM Director of Operations at Joel Creek in Birmingham. And we talk about a lot of how he didn't intend to start in clubs. He started off in mechanical engineering and he had an internship that made him realize that he was way too social to sit behind a desk all day. Um, and then that's what started off his career into hospitality and finally finding his home here in clubs. But it's so neat because he started off as you know, working out in a in a in a bar in a in a hotel, and he had a manager that was just okay. And he found out what his manager made. And he goes, Well, if he can make a living and get that living doing this, then I can definitely do this. Which is really funny because that's a little bit how I started my career in entertainment at a very big push from my family. But after seeing some of my friends do or some people that I just knew doing it, going, well, if they can do it and make a living, I can definitely do it and make a living. Uh we talk about his journey to clubs, get a couple moves across the country and finally coming home to Alabama in a senior leadership role at one of the most iconic clubs in the state. He sits on the Alabama CMAA board and how he's helping rejuvenate, really bring the chapter to the next level. That includes student chapters at universities like North Alabama and Auburn and really trying to help bring the next generation of club leaders to life and showcase how amazing clubs, a lot of clubs are going through renovations right now. So talk about what it's like managing the full property renovation while keeping your people engaged, which is extremely, extremely difficult. And we also joke about why he calls clubs the perfect career for anybody whose brain loves variety and tiny objects, just like wiggle off on so many side classes. And I'm super excited to have him on and for us to a lot of good laughs, a lot of great conversations, a lot of great nuggets. Real quick before we get to the episode, if you or your club is looking for your 2026 fun member event night, you're looking for something fun, unique, and different, something that's crowd focused, something that is focused on you and your members having a really great personalized experience. Check out the Denny Corby experience. If there's excitement, there's mystery, also there's magic, mind reading, and comedy, a ton of laughs and gasps, and holy crap. So if you want to learn more, head on over to denycorby.com. If you want to have a chat, fill out the contact form. Let's talk about bringing my show to your club for 2026. Enough about that though, let's get to the episode. Private club of radio listeners. Let's welcome to the show, uh Curtis Gardner. Now, did you grow up in Alabama? Like is that is that is that home base for you? Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_00:Um my wife and I are both from here. Not like a college here at UA. And um I lived for a little while in Idaho, but not very long.
SPEAKER_01:Was that just for like another club gig?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then what what prompted that is like a different opportunity to something else? And then you're like, I miss home.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's just time to move up and on um in life. And uh the club that I was at, I was working as an assistant manager. Um, I wanted to move up to be an assistant clubhouse manager, so I moved to uh the Valley Club in Sun Valley, Idaho. Yeah, because it was the right decision at the time, and then I got an opportunity to come back to Birmingham as a director of operations for uh the club that I'm at now, and so it just all came full circle. We came back, and this is uh, you know, like I said, home for my wife. So she's got grandparents and everything else here, and we had our daughter here, so it was the right thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What what exactly is a director of operations? Like what does that entail, and you know, how does that compare to like the previous jobs and roles that you've been in?
SPEAKER_00:So director of ops is pretty comparable to um clubhouse manager role. Most clubs have you know one or the other. Um, and uh clubhouse manager didn't make a ton of sense from a title perspective because we don't just have a clubhouse, we have a clubhouse and we have um several cottages on site, we have a a wedding chapel, we have uh you know a separate golf shop.
SPEAKER_01:Now, did you guys build it or was it already there?
SPEAKER_00:Um they built it here. Um it's uh a uh mirror of the Williamsburg Town Hall because the club's built in Williamsburg colonial style. So um it's just uh the town hall chapel is what we call it, and um it often gets used for weddings, and that is about it. Weddings and uh annual meeting and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01:And when the occasional golfer's doing really bad, he likes to pop in and uh say a couple Hail Marys.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Now, you you have a you have a unique path. Like you you didn't intend on clubs, did you?
SPEAKER_00:No, that was definitely wasn't my intention. Um, I started off when I went to school um at UA, it was to join the engineering program. So I went to UA as a mechanical engineer, um, well, intending to come out a mechanical engineer. And then um after taking an internship and realizing that that really wasn't my path because uh I'm a little bit more social than a lot of the people that I worked with, and uh that was a struggle for sure, but it just didn't interest or excite me as much. Um, there wasn't a lot of interaction with people, and and I was kind of sitting at a desk all day, and I never really saw myself sitting um at a desk for an extended period of time. You know, even now with a clubhouse that's closed at Shoal, I I probably spend 20% of my day at a desk. Um, and a lot of that is just selective and being strategic about planning a reopening and making sure that we're staying engaged with our staff that we unfortunately had to furlough and uh stuff like that. So, you know, initially um I grew up in a in a family. My father's a contractor, my brother is too, so they um do a lot of commercial work and electrical work and you know building site building and stuff like that. So that was always kind of a path, I guess, in my mind of staying in the family business in some capacity, but I didn't want to be an electrician, so I was like, you know, engineer. Um and then uh when I went to school and and came out an internship, I was like, yeah, this is not what I need to do. Um and uh of course, like everybody else, I was working in restaurants in a college town, and um hotel was uh hiring for a bar manager, and uh so I jumped on board as a bar manager at a hotel, had a conversation with my food and beverage director at the time of like um you know what I wanted to do because I had just came back from this internship that I really didn't like, and he was like, you know, you like food and beverage and hostility, like why don't you do this for a living? And I was like, there's just not enough money in it. And he kind of shared how much he was making, and I was like, Whoa, there is money in this.
SPEAKER_01:And you don't do a great job. I can do better, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it's funny, I actually had a similar conversation with a friend of mine recently. His son is uh 19, he just went to Auburn University, they have a very big hospitality program, and he worked with me this previous summer um on our houseman team, which is kind of like our steward staff. They handle moving tables and chairs and getting buffets set up and things like that. So um he worked with me because he's interested in being in hospitality. He actually originally intended on going to the culinary program to come out as chef, but enjoyed the time here so much. He was like, wow, I kinda I want to do this. Like he's like, I want to be a club manager one day. And I was like, Well, there's certainly a path, and and um, you know, Auburn University is closed, so whenever you come home for the summer, it'd be easy for you to transition back and help us over the summer because we tend to be very busy that time. I was like, and we can you know transfer you roll to roll to give you exposure in different areas. And uh he moves off to school and he's like, I don't really know what I want to do for a job. I was like, well, you know, I have friends obviously that manage clubs in that area, so we can do that. Um and you know, they're always looking for good help, especially university students that are going to be there the majority of the year.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I was like, but the other option, of course, is to just do something else, um, not necessarily a club, you know, find yourself in a different type of restaurant. So Auburn University actually has a um hotel that the university owns and manages with students as employees.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's cool. So the I think uh I think what's it called has has one similar too. Like Ithaca.
SPEAKER_00:The Kellogg Center.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the Kellogg Center at Michigan State is one of the big uh like similar style places. Um it's a little bit bigger than the one they built at Auburn, and I think there is another one in uh Ithaca as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, Ithaca Corning, something like that. Somewhere up in that that neck of the woods. Do you do you do a lot with the Utes?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, our chapter recently has tried um to branch back out. Um funny thing is the guy who manages the um Winged Foot Club in New York, um, he actually graduated from Auburn University. Um, and Auburn University didn't have any um club manager classes or anything uh like associated, but there's a lot of people that graduated from there that went to their hospitality program that ended up working in very big jobs, so it doesn't make sense that they don't have one. So we've been trying to rebuild our student chapter. We started rebuilding our student chapter um because I'm on the board of our local CMA. We started rebuilding it in North Alabama, kind of the Huntsville area, because they're seeing a fair amount of growth there. There's a Boeing and Falker facility there, and you know, the space uh museum, and and a lot of that technology is there, and uh, of course, the Space Force is moving to Huntsville. So are they a lot of yeah, there are a lot of in industry in that area. Um, so they're seeing some club expansion up there, so it made sense for us to kind of get a foothold with a student chapter up there, and we've gotten a fair amount of attendance. Um, but yeah, we've been focusing a lot on kind of the future of this business. Um, I biggest thing for me is I didn't know about it whenever I was, you know, going through school. I started at a hotel and I knew that there was an opportunity in a hotel, but you know, private clubs never really cross our mind. You don't really think about how many of them there are if you're not involved in that world. Um, but Birmingham alone has eight very big clubs, and um that's a lot of clubs within about you know 20 to 30 minutes of each other. Um, and then you've got several in North Alabama, and you go to a place like Atlanta and there's like 25 in Atlanta or you know, somewhere like Jupiter, Florida, where there's more courses and clubs per capita than anywhere else in the world. Yeah. So really want to, I guess, create an on-road for students to not necessarily just think about hotels because I know hotels are guilty of burnout because they're open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. It's a super, super challenging business to be in. Clubs are as well, but um the majority of them close. Uh so it's not like you have to have somebody there, you know, overnight or anything like that, or a management staff that's there until 1 a.m. You know, clubs tend to wrap it up pretty early. Um, so this is uh definitely a better business, I think, for people who intend to start a family. You know, I don't think I have friends that are still in hotels and they're just away from home a lot more than I am. And I started in a very big club where the hour load was very, very heavy, and that was kind of the expectation. The younger managers was just kind of there all the time because there was always something happening. Um and uh so helping people find out about this business and then creating a path for them to work their way into it so that we can, you know, build the next generation of clubs leaders is kind of our intention for sure.
SPEAKER_01:What's it been like growing growing that student? I mean, so so so so to go back, was there a student chapter or are you are you and the gang building it fresh?
SPEAKER_00:Um essentially starting fresh, um, but uh had some help with one of the dean of students at um University of North Alabama um and then recently contacted um the Auburn University Dean Um of the hospitality program to do the same thing and build out a student chapter there.
SPEAKER_01:What's been what's been the learning pro like what's what's that process been like starting that? And like, you know, what's you know, hurdles, what issue, you know, what's what's it been like getting that started? Like like what what's been some of the hardest things about it um really just kind of how we're doing it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um, you know, how do we like what university makes sense for us to actually make connections at? Um how do we get a uh hospitality program to add a course because there's not a you know club management course, and it typically helps to have a student chapter if there's some relevant course. Um so Auburn University, it's you know, who's gonna teach the course and what a what regarding clubs is that course gonna be about. Um, you know, University of North Alabama, they do have uh a club management and hospitality class. Um, so it it's covered under a broader umbrella of club man of uh hospitality management. Um so trying to find that in-road that makes the most sense and a place to kind of make your uh anchor where you can build off of around the entire state. Um, you know, because you don't want to have just a single chapter at Auburn University or a single chapter at the University of Alabama and no opportunities for them to network and interact with each other from different schools. So trying to make a statewide student chapter that's integrated with our CNA chapter. So the biggest challenge is you know, we had one prior to COVID. Um, and then COVID happened and all this stuff kind of just fell by the wayside. Um, it was really hard for club managers to get together and and meet up, and even harder to connect with students when you know university campuses were 100% remote at the time, so a lot of students were home learning, not even in uh college towns, so just kind of fizzled and now we're you know drawing it back from nothing. Um my uh chapter president, his name's John Grigsby. He works in uh the southern portion of Alabama and he's been great. He uh manages uh Dothan Country Club and um you know he's kind of boots to the ground, helped rebuild our chapter as a whole. Um, because you know, we all lost that connection because we were so focused on on surviving that time in our clubs. And you know, I'm sure you've heard it from other managers. Uh all of our members felt the safest at their clubs because they always viewed it as an extension of their home. So we didn't see a fluctuation in business down like every other restaurant and hotel and everything else. We saw an upswing in business. So, you know, we did more to go orders than we'd ever done for three and a half months when we couldn't do in-person dining. Um, I mean, we were feeding everybody who lived within two or three miles of the club, and uh moving on and and finding uh going to a different club and then trying to reconnect and rebuild a chapter that didn't have any education opportunities as I was navigating the path to get my CMAA was was very challenging. And and John was very helpful with that uh because he's been in the business for a very long time and he became our board president and you know our education started back up, and and now we uh at a bare minimum do quarterly meetings um for education sessions, um intending to do more. We're building together with other chapters, so between us and um Tennessee and Georgia, we're gonna do the Southeastern Classic, which would be uh opportunity for all of us to gather together. So Chattanooga will kind of be our first site where we all meet and have education sessions together, um, and then it'll rotate um each state. So it'll likely be Tennessee and then Georgia and then Alabama. Um so it's just kind of been doing the work is really the biggest thing. You know, all of our clubs are busy. We're going through a$27 million renovation here at Shoal. Um, you know, one of my other uh board members is uh Joe at Wicker Point. Wicker Point's actually doing a um they're a brand new club, so they're uh building their program out. Um they've been operational for about a year and a half, I think two years now. Um so they're kind of you know getting into the swing of things, but he he started from scratch as we were rebuilding this chapter too. You know, John had recently moved to Dothan, um our oncoming board president, um who uh we actually do that next week um in Sagahatchie, which is right next to Auburn. He's um been there. Yep. Uh he's gonna be um the new board president. So he had just taken over Sagahatchie at the time. So a lot of us moving around um kind of all have found a steady place following COVID. Um and you know, obviously moved up. You know, he was a club manager, clubhouse manager at a club in Montgomery, and then now he's the GM of a club in in Auburn. And Joe is assistant manager with me at CCB or Coach Club of Birmingham, and he moved on to be a uh club manager at Wicker Point. And then I moved, you know, from an assistant manager to Idaho to back here um as a director of ops, and I'm now the AGM. So yeah. It's uh it's been a lot of transitions of doing it all at once all together.
SPEAKER_01:Because it's just your chapter in your state, right? And in Alabama is a big state. Like that's yeah, I'm sure you have to do to try to keep the meetings more central. Do you move it around all over to try to hit? I mean, and and that's gotta be tricky as well, you know, not just getting the juice back in a student chapter, but also your own chapter. Like just bringing that, you know, that's it's a it's a lot of work. I mean, I know Jennifer Meng, and you know, she has a central PA chapter, she she runs that. Uh, you know, it's difficult to wrangle the troops. Like it's hard to herd cats.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and we're all we've all got our own calendars, of course. Like uh, you know, we're all clubs with you know significant operations that we have to work around. So trying to find a a time that we all have available to meet, but we're not so burnt out with what's going on at work. Um, and we don't want to uh you know, we have the time to actually meet up. Um, we try to keep it central, but we also want to be fair to the people who come from South Alabama and stuff like that. But obviously, we've got you know Shull Creek, where I'm at, um, Mountain Brook Club, Country Club of Birmingham, Vestavia Country Club, all of those are in the Birmingham metro area. Um, and then Auburn, Opalica area, um, you know, there's Sagahatchie out there that's about an hour and 40 minutes away from Birmingham. Joe's at Wicker Point is about an hour and 20 minutes outside of Birmingham. Huntsville's about two hours north of Birmingham. So Birmingham's your central location for sure. Um, but we try to be fair and give an opportunity for our club managers to see other clubs. We haven't made it to Huntsville in a very long time, so making it to Huntsville is uh one of the things that we intend to do next year. Um, there's a club up there called the Ledges that we'll visit. Um, and that's the thing, you know, it is a big state, and you know, we do have a conversation of clubs in the Birmingham area, but there's a lot of clubs outside of Birmingham that we need to maintain connections with, and that's hard to do when the you know expectation for them is like, hey, we're having a meeting. You want to drive two hours on a Monday um or Sunday on your off day to come and and meet with some guys um and and do an education session.
SPEAKER_01:So really early.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Do you want to get up at five?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, after a huge Sunday brunch. Is that what you want to do on a Monday?
SPEAKER_01:And leave your family to come talk shop more? No. What's what what have you found helped to get people out? You know, as as as you've been rebuilding and you know, getting more juice and energy and people and life into the chapter. What have you seen helps, or what do you think rallies like, or what what at least works for you? Because I know each chapter is different. Every group is different, like what have you found works for you and your chapter and your group that usually gets people out or gets them excited or at least gets a little bit of juice going?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, I think for us, uh communication is extremely important. So sending out the you know the education calendar um as early as possible. Um, we try to, we're actually gonna finalize our calendar for next year at our November meeting that's gonna be next Sunday. So the board will meet and uh finalize the details of that so that we can share it with the rest of the uh club managers in the state. Um, but really leaning on our industry experts to um do education that is very, very valuable is what's been very helpful for us. Um you know, we have a big club here called Greystone Golf and Clinch Club. They do the uh Regions Classic Tournament every year. Um they do you know a lot of business. They have two clubhouses, two courses in a very, very big neighborhood that has access to social memberships. So they do a ton of business. And um, I can't pick all the education relevant to things that are just relevant to me. So talking to the other club managers and leaders and asking them kind of what makes sense for you to sit through at an education session, because I know all of us that have our CCM, we have to maintain a certain amount of education hours, but um you want it to be something relevant to what you're going through at the moment. Um we uh had a very successful one here at Shoal that we hosted last year. Um, you know, capital asset planning has been a very big thing, very big conversation for a lot of clubs. Um, a lot of clubs are aging to the point of needing renovation from a course perspective, clubhouse perspective, lodging if you have that. Um, and a lot of clubs are doing a lot of reinvestment now because of the influx of memberships that we saw during COVID. So, you know, taking advantage of the members joining now and creating something that is um healthy and continues for the future of the club business. Um, you know, you want to make sure that you're taking care of your club and taking care of your members, but you want to use the capital that you have available to reinvest and you know, kind of fix the club up. So we did a uh benchmarking session um with uh club benchmarking, uh talking about their capital asset survey, which is what we use. Um we actually had one here at Shoal. And they go around property and they kind of take a catalog of all of your um equipment and give you an idea of the longevity of it, and it shows a lot of the holes that you have from a facilities perspective, because it's like, wow, that um you know, that air handler should have been replaced 10 years ago. You know, these fairways are are struggling, and our green superintendent does a fantastic job keeping them healthy, but realistically, the life of a fairway is about 25 to 35 years. We're going on 45 years. Um, you know, it's uh and that's the luck of having a really fantastic um you know Greenski Greens team here at Shoal. Um he uh you know braves through those challenges and keeps the course healthy and and looking great, uh, even without challenging conditions. And I know in a lot of other clubs are doing the same thing. You know, you always gotta do bunker renovations, you know, they don't they don't drain the way they're supposed to, and you know, you've always got to work on the pool because you always have to, you know, if you have lodging and members are using that, um, you know, that that's gonna get beat up pretty quickly. So we got to make sure that we're taking care of our lodging so that everyone gets the you know the same experience as best we can give them. And that's just me. And I know that Grace owns the same thing. They do that Regions Classic Tournament every year. That's a a lot of feed on property, a lot of um, you know, facilities use. So that was one of our most successful ones because we kind of listened to what everybody else needed, um, what education would be relevant to them. Um, and getting obviously getting the uh senior managers out is very, very important because they drive the budget and mission of their clubs and allocate funds for education for their uh assistant managers. So we want the education to be relevant for them so that they have a piece, but also talking to younger and upper coming, up-and-coming managers and seeing what they think would be relevant education um so that we can use that as well. So we did some conflict resolution ones that was great. Um the uh meeting was uh in Montgomery, I believe. And uh had a fair amount of attendance to that. Um it was a great time of year for our students to come out because it was our summer meeting. Um, so we had a lot of student attendance, and um that was a very valuable one. Um and uh just kind of continuing on the same trajectory, which is what education is relevant to you guys, and how do we build on that and uh continue to get guys showing up because a big part of it's obviously the education, but another part of it is the networking and and connections that you create. And if we don't create an opportunity for people to gather, then it's very, very challenging for somebody to to network if you're not just traveling around going club to club to club.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think for me, clubs have just been a place that um it's given me an opportunity to flex muscles that I never really thought would be valuable in the career that I chose. Um so whenever I started in this business, I I was just a bar manager and um it was kind of very linear. That was my my my job was managing the bar and the operations associated. So I had my banquet staff and then I had my restaurant bar staff and then ordering and and uh making sure that product was available for all of uh our outlets at a very, very large club was kind of my intro to the business. And I didn't have an opportunity to do some of the things that I do now because that was kind of my linear focus. Um when I moved to a smaller club in Idaho, it gave me an opportunity to kind of wear several hats because we just had to. It was a club that was closed, you know, four to six months out of the year. So you you don't maintain as much of a you know leadership team as you do at those bigger clubs, so you you get an opportunity to wear more hats. And then when I came here to shoal, it was another opportunity to flex a muscle outside of club business, which is you know, kind of my father manages a contracting business. Um, whenever I was interviewing, the GM told me, you know, one of the things here that's really difficult to manage is the facilities portion of it. Um, you know, we don't have a facilities director on site, um, but we do have you know cottages, we have you know separate teaching facility, separate golf shop, separate warehouse that we base our uh houseman operations and housekeeping operations out of, you know, separate golf course maintenance facility. And whenever I heard that, I was kind of like, well, that's a you know, that's something that I have a little bit of knowledge and skill in because I grew up in the business uh, you know, working in construction and working with my dad's business when I was younger. Um and so that's how I found myself being uh a director of operations to then becoming the AGM is taking a lot of that stuff on. Um so you know, if I had anything to say to anyone, I think it'd be, you know, finding a club that fits you is is extremely important. Um, you know, right now I'm very lucky to have a club that fits me, get an opportunity to do things that I don't do at a lot of other places. You know, some days I come to work wearing a suit, and some days I come to work, you know, dressed like I am today, which is to do some work um outside of the club. We don't have a lot of operations um or any operations as far as food and beverage goes, and you know, not a lot of on-site lodging while the course is closed. So, how do I keep my staff engaged and um you know employed, I guess, is the justification for keeping my housekeeping and um houseman staff is you know, what are we doing to make the club better and help the project move along? So, you know, getting a chance to help out with the construction of the clubhouse and you know, coordination with our Greens team on ways that we can help them and um managing that course uh renovation is really awesome to get exposure um to a lot of those things. You know, I I get you know, everybody gets recruiting calls and and stuff like that. Um and it it it's always been the clubs that I've been in at the past, like it's always like a tug of like oh that you know might be worth pursuing, like that might be worth pursuing. And here I'm just Where I need to be, it would take something very, very big for me to consider leaving. You know, we're in the middle of this renovation and it's an extremely valuable experience. Something that a lot of clubs are going to be going through soon. You know, making it through this project and seeing the other side of what the new clubhouse looks like, what the new course looks like, you know, how our membership structure changes as a result of all this work is really important. But yeah, it's just kind of strange how I found myself going to school for an engineer and um to be an engineer, and then I found myself in club management and get an opportunity to you know make some of my uh uh education for my youth working in my dad's business work for me um in a club. So, you know, for me it's just about being where you where you should be. Um I uh had a guy in an education session at one time. We were talking about our clubs and kind of the barriers that we had at those clubs, and um I mentioned something along the lines of you know, I have tattoos and you know, a lot of clubs are very traditional, it's very uh I have to keep them hidden, um, which is a bit strange because you know, all of our weight staff and everybody else, they have tattoos and stuff. And he said, uh, well, you know, are you at the right club? And I never really thought of it that way. Um, and uh I was at the time. The education I got there was extremely valuable. Um the GM there is uh he's great. He's managing a giant operation um very successfully and has done for a very long time, but um I didn't get the exposure to all those areas. Um I was you know kind of missing, I had some blind spots, and so moving to that other club in Idaho, you know, helped fill in some of those gaps. And then here at Shoal, I feel like I really have found the place um that makes the most sense for me and you know, in the business. Uh, an ability to use uh a culmination of the skills and abilities that I've gained through my life as a club manager is is really awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'm I'm I'm sure you sticking it out, like so you just like talking about how you know there's the better offers, there's those, you know, opportunities. But you know, let's you know, you you you you are sticking there. But I'm sure that let's just say it's another year, right? That year of sticking it through through all of that, all all the learning, all the stuff you're gonna get from the from the renovations, from the updates, from all that. That's like let's just say that year is probably gonna be like 55, 10 years of experience, like worth of experience and knowledge. That like if you were to like jump chip early, you know, a lot of people like think, oh, like look at that opportunity. I'll just take it. Okay. Whereas if you just like stuck it out, like what like uh stick you you saw it out a little bit longer, six months, a year, two years, that could potentially be like you know, double, triple, four or five times worth the education in terms of like the knowledge and just what you're learning and bringing in, and you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. And I think when I first started out in clubs, I wasn't um as intentional, I guess. Um, you know, it was about you know stability and money and and what made the most sense and and work-life balance, and all of those things are still extremely important, of course. Um, but now it's the strategy of kind of what gives me um valuable experience for what my next step may be. Um, and and that kind of leads into what you were saying is is it is five to ten years worth of experience, you know, transitioning from this, that, and the other. You know, my my GM came from clubs in Atlanta. He says it a lot, is like giving uh these smaller clubs like this, we wear a ton of hats. It gives us an opportunity to flex different muscles and gain experience that maybe we wouldn't have at other areas, um, at other areas of the of the club world. Um, so not being so compartmentalized and kind of managing all of those things and flexing all those muscles gives us you know extremely valuable experience that can relate to some of those very, very large clubs as we find ourselves you know higher up with a very, very large team, given uh the fact that we've been through it and connected to all those areas. It's very easy to connect with the managers that manage those departments. So if I find myself as a GM somewhere and I have a facilities director, I have some experience helping manage the facilities here at Shoal. So that's gonna be something that's extremely valuable in the future. Um, you know, younger managers that manage bars, I did that as well. Um, you know, I've managed banquets, I've managed a restaurant. Um so being uh very strategic about um my uh career path as well as the education associated, I think is is something that I try to focus on now. Um something I didn't know about when I was younger. And that's a big reason that we want to build out our student chapter here is is you know helping these people not just get line level management jobs. We don't want them to be um assistant managers and that's it. We're not just trying to fill um the coffers of our staff here in the state. We want to create um people who want to move up in this world and and have an opportunity to be exposed to that. Um so when you gather managers that are, you know, first year of management, second year of management with people who've been doing it for 10, 12, 20 years, um, that's a very valuable thing that I didn't have access to when I was a student. So I want to I want to build that out so that we can have those conversations about, you know, the CMAA is not just another um professional organization that has this inorganic, you know, networking ability. Uh there are some real um you know things to get out of it that are extremely valuable. You know, a lot of my education, getting my CCM, um, a lot of things I I kind of really thought I knew already, um, and and I did have a fair amount of information on them. But I always tell people the most important lesson I learned in college is that I don't know everything. Um, and so everything's an opportunity to learn. And um, you know, working through that and going through classes uh for my CCM and doing all of my BMIs, all of those gave me a different perspective and uh you know an opportunity to share that with uh students so that they can see this uh organization and how it helps you in your career is is uh what we want to do here in our local chapter.
SPEAKER_01:And and that there's so many opportunities, not just in club management. Like there is, you know, if if you like golf and you're good with numbers and you like hospitality, like you can do finance. Like you can do, like there's so many opportunities in the club and hospit, you know, in the club world that like it's not just the leadership and you know management. There's so many little avenues and things that like you know, if if you just like the industry and you have like another like niche or another like thing, come check it out. This is a fun place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh I think it's uh it's it's wild because my wife works in the corporate world. Um, you know, she manages an office at a real estate investment office. Um and it's just so interesting how different it is, even from a communication perspective, like the way that their COOs and CFOs operate around each other, you know, versus the way that I here interact with my controller and my GM. You know, my wife uh is you know, it's coming up on the time of the year where annual reviews and everything are coming. Um and uh she was talking about it, and she's like, I'm I'm nervous. I know I should be nervous, like there's no reason to be nervous, it's just like we it's we don't do this a lot. And I was like, Yeah, I don't really have that issue because my GM and I kind of we talk every day at least um for a short period of time, and then you know, several times a week we have a couple hours uh in each other's offices, so we we know where we stand with each other, um, and there's that mutual respect and and a constant flow of communication both directions. So the the idea of a review is is kind of funny because I I know where we stand, you know. We we are kind of always communicating on uh how we're doing and how we can do things better. Um, whereas in the corporate world, there's there's barriers where maybe you don't spend as much time in your boss's office because it feels like you're going to the principal's office. In the clubs, it's a little bit different. It's just like I I always hesitate to say a club, you know, like any kind of business is like a family because you know, some people have difficult families, and and clubs can be absolutely difficult, but um, it is a little bit more of that like family dynamic. There's there's a little comfortability, like comfort, and we all go through this together, and we all have the same goal, which is to make sure our members have a great time. And I feel like I can walk into anybody's office um because you know we all have the same goal. Um it's it's pretty cool to be in a completely different world than her, even from you know an HR perspective. When I need to talk to our HR team or our C of uh our controller whenever um I want to have a conversation about something relevant to accounting, or talking to my assistant manager, or our green superintendent. Like in a corporate world, that would probably be strange to just go around and and and have that much overlap. Um, and and in the club, it's just pretty organic. It just feels very normal for us to just constantly be communicating and and um you know maintain that type of relationship. I know when we originally talked, um, because Sean connected us, uh uh my wife thought it was hilarious um that when we had the conversation, I was like, yeah, Denny said, uh, oh, you're more interesting than I thought you might be. And she was like, uh she was like, uh, what is that what does that mean? I was like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I I guess you know, some people uh you know, some people are or honestly, I probably could have just been saying that just to get a reaction audio. So yeah. Sometimes I say shit just to get a rise out of people.
SPEAKER_00:But because uh I was on the way to work this morning and she was like, you know, what are you doing this morning? And I was like, Oh, I've got a uh a call with Denny. Um we're gonna talk on his private club radio podcast. And she's like, What? You're doing a podcast? You don't even listen to podcasts. I was like I was like, I listen to podcasts, I just don't listen to podcasts around you. Like it's something I do on the way to work. Um and she's like, uh, how how did you how are you on a podcast? What what is happening? And that's when we were having the conversation, and she's like, that's that's funny. Um that that you're more interesting than you might seem on paper. Yeah, absolutely. Uh it is extremely unique. Um, you know, I always joke, uh, I have ADHD. Um, of course, it's one of the things that I've struggled with my whole life. Um, and uh the best part I think about clubs and why it matches me so well is because every single day is different. Whereas uh, you know, I have a goal and and you know I'm strategic about what I want to do as a as a leader in a club. It can be something different every day. You know, it's not about coming in and crunching numbers every single day, it's not about coming in and you know forecasting maintenance schedules for the rest of the year every single day. It's not about you know standing in the restaurant and shaking hands every day. Um, it's it's something different. And um I don't think in a lot of other places I would have gotten the same opportunity. But you know, dopamine chasing as a as someone with ADHD, it's like let's go have fun in this area, learn a little bit, enjoy it, let's go over here. And and so funnily enough, like it's helped me in my career, I think, to to be someone who is that you're marketing, that you're marketing for the students ADHD ADHD or dream.
SPEAKER_01:Come on, guys. Do you like shiny objects? Do you have trouble focusing? Come try clubs.
SPEAKER_00:Like hey, absolutely. This is uh, you know, I found my place um and and it works really well for me. And I know a lot of other people are very, very similar. Um, you know, you found your place, uh, you know, starting as a magician and now um going around the country speaking. And um, it's always it's extremely interesting to me kind of how we find our way to what we what we end up doing. Is is you know, how did we get here and and and you know what what started this path? For me, it was that manager who was you know, like, why don't you consider doing this um as a career instead of an engineer? And I was like, uh, there's not a lot of money in it, because you always hear there's not a lot of money in restaurants, not a lot of money in hospitality, or at least I did, I don't know if everyone does. Um and then he shared with me, like, no, there's an opportunity, this is how much I make. Um yeah, I think those conversations are very, very important because you know, we're in this world of of AI and what jobs can you um, you know, transition to artificial intelligence and and what jobs can't you? Um, you know, the organic nature of this business and the relationship building and the traditions of club, I think there will absolutely be applications for AI. I mean, there is today. Like if we need a marketing thing, I don't have a marketing director. So having like, you know, something that I can riff ideas off of and accomplish a task faster, I think it's very, very great. But I don't think that we're gonna have you know kiosks for bars. Um, we're not gonna have kiosks for uh our snack stand. You know, we'll we'll always have to have that organic relationship. You know, the the lady who's been at our turnhouse um has worked at the club for like 15 years and everyone adores her.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think about clubs be an uproar. There'd be an uproar. Absolutely. Something were to happen.
SPEAKER_00:I mean when she would when she retires, people will shed tears for sure. Um so I think about clubs in that way is like this is a a little you know safer um from that as well. You know, hotels are gonna optimize their uh management staff and the teams that run those places. So if they can incorporate AI, they're they're probably going to. I don't think clubs are gonna be very eager to incorporate those things into their clubs. Um, you know, it's it's it's a people business, and um that's what I've always really, really liked about it is you know the staff that I get to build a relationship with, the members I get to build a relationship with. Um and it produce you know, it produces a lot of challenges that you get an opportunity to kind of rise to the occasion, I guess, is the best way of putting it. Is it's it's awesome to have something come up, it's a challenging situation, or you know, something that takes a lot of planning to do really well. Um, you know, trying to change our tournaments to make them more interesting, and then finding success in those things when we get um you know positive feedback from our members, or you know, working at a place where the staff is, you know, the culture is not great and and people are kind of against each other. Um, you know, having an opportunity to get everybody on the same page so that they understand that we're all working towards the same goal. Um, you know, all of those challenges I think are are really great for for personal, uh, you know, building my personal character um as well as you know my professional abilities, but it's you know, the ADHC thing. There's a different like nut to chase every day, and uh getting to accomplish like those small wins is is really, really awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I feel like shows are like the same too. It's like I know, you know, it's it's it's the same trick sometimes, the same stuff, but it's never the same audience or the same people, the same reaction. So it's yeah, it's just it's it fulfills that dopamine. It's like ah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's always nice to know you're you're doing the right thing, and um, you know, like I like I know when I was coming up as a manager, the things that I didn't like that I got from my leadership, um, and it's just the way that they were doing things, or maybe I misunderstood the intentions. Um, so I use that kind of in my role now where here's the things that I try to avoid um in regards to staff of of like making sure that they understand that if I'm trying to correct something, it's not because I don't think they're doing a great job, it's just because that's not the way that we do things. Whenever we're training somebody new, it's not about, hey, this is my way, it's about consistency. I want every member to get the same experience, so I don't want you doing things something differently than everybody else. Um, so you know, I talk about communication a lot. I think it's very important to get out of the office and and connect with your people. Um I always tell my staff, if you ever want to question something, you're more than welcome to, because you may have an idea of how to do this better than I do. I don't wait tables here, I don't, you know, bartend here. So if there's a way that we could do things a little bit better, if there's tools that we can incorporate into the role that that make things easier for you, then then let me know. So leading with compassion, um, you know, the world is hard enough, life's hard enough. You shouldn't go to work and not like being there. So, you know, let's find a way to make sure that we enjoy being here.
SPEAKER_01:And clubs are adult playgrounds. Yeah, absolutely. Like sometimes they're so, so I don't know what the word is. Sometimes they're a little like ah, they're adult playgrounds.
SPEAKER_00:Like people are here to have fun. Absolutely. I mean, the second people come through the gate here, the it's different, right? You know, they're they're not at the office, they're here to have a great time, and and you know, obviously you've every club has you know people that are quote unquote picky or or have a you know high standard of expectation or or anything like that. If you communicate the way the club operates on the front end of the membership, they understand that you set yourself up for success, and then you give your staff the tools to make sure that they can achieve that goal reasonably and be happy while they're here. Because it is, like I said, it's about relationships. I'm sure a lot of other club managers have said the same thing is you know, we're not just waiting tables at a restaurant that sees 1,500 different people a week. We see the same 550 members. So they're gonna want to build a relationship with you, they're gonna want to know about your life. And if they come in and they see that you're miserable, they're gonna ask you why they're miserable. You know, they're gonna ask you what's going on because they know you. It's not like they haven't seen you in in 10 years or or have never been here before. They come here, you know, two to three times a week. Our national members, they come here and build a relationship with our staff. So, you know, making sure that this is a place that everybody likes so the members are like, you know, our staff is upbeat and happy and and um want to see us. That's important.
SPEAKER_01:Curtis, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you so much for all the amazing conversation. I really appreciate it. Hope you all enjoyed this episode. That's this episode. Until next time, the flipping flip.
